You forgot that the referree took 'the call' at half time to penalise us to death

It did seem that way at times.

Sadly dboy, been watching more than 25 years. Just think Morro is the best leader for a very long time. Topliss and Bill Ashurst were leaders of men since then I cannot think of a great Captain at Trinity. JD was good but seemed to sulk when things were going wrong on the pitch.

Well people (e.g. you) have very short memories then!

Again, not in anyway denigrating Morrison, but we have at times been blessed with players (leaders), that have truly been inspirational.

Test your memory a little...

John Kear has history for kicking at a scrum in our 20mtr area when Karl Pryce is one of those defending that side.

He did it against Bradford about 4 years ago when Paul White scored.

That's assuming Penny would have gathered the ball in and put it down correctly. Penny seems to lack the basic skills to be a rugby league player just having pace is not enough for me.

as usual dboy I am going to need some help on this one

I agree, there would always be that question mark over him, a bit like George, and like George they are both questionable defensibly, what isn't up for question is the speed, and IMHO we should utilise it.
Their weaknesses will always cost us points, so let's try and score some to even up the balance on their strengths.

not looking too far back we had a bloke called gareth ellis, he did a good job as skipper



However I realise what you are saying about morro. It must also be remembered that he has around him a very young and inexperienced team and he is doing a great job

Absolutely - not only does he put his body on the line for 80 mins, but he always gives the lads a nod when they get something right and tries to lift them when something goes wrong; for me, Morro epitomises the role of Captain - a true professional and one of our best overseas signings in many a year.

Test my memory then because I can't think of a better all round player and leader on the pitch in the last 20 years at least - do enlighten us?

George was the best tackler in the back line yesterday IMHO.

Why is George suspect, he gets binned every week only for it to be found that after all it wasn't him. Time and time again yesterday he was there to cover for Griffin who didn't have a bad game but was out of position a number of times. I noticed how many times various players patted Luke on the back after a tackle, that says a lot to me.

There is no question mark over George in my book and to lump him in with Penny really baffles me TBH.

Fortunately I was in the company of JD and glen Morrison after the game,when glen was asked the question regarding the fracard with wild his answer was .I Had to get in there and help the young lads....That in my eyes is a true leader,long may it continue.up the trin.

if pressed, i am not a big fan of george. he just seems erratic at times. i know that in his position (wing) any mistakes are magnified, but he did charge out of the line (when playing centre) and sometimes was found defending in the middle.

i thought penny had a better game today. he definately tried, and was keen to take up the ball. IIRC he only droppped one high ball, albeit under no pressure.

i thought blaymire looked solid at the back and especially under the high ball. one thing that blaymire does well and is often overlooked is that he marshalls the defense well. you can see him pointing and shouting to the team to move left, right etc etc.

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as for great leaders, morrison is up there with the best in recent times, and would definately make it into a "best wakey team of the last 25 years". for me ray price was "the man" and we have a lot to thank matt fuller for as well.

Yesterday he looked like a player with a point to prove and I thought he did a good job in the centres; his defence was solid for the most part and he looks more comfortable in that position.

Penny, on the other hand, should be put in a room with a tackle bag and not allowed to come out until he has grasped the basic technique; he has a bad habit of flying past his man and sticking an arm out on the way past - that's either lack of bottle or poor technique.

That was Penny who flew out of the line as far as I recall.

Your opinion on George is fair enough though I don't agree with it. As for George look where Griffin was or wasn't if you get the DVD, it may prove otherwise.

That was Penny who flew out of the line as far as I recall.

Your opinion on George is fair enough though I don't agree with it. As for George look where Griffin was or wasn't if you get the DVD, it may prove otherwise.

Also George is not a winger, his natural position is centre which I think explained why he had a better game.

However to suggest Penny had a better game makes me wonder where your starting point is! Basically he can't play RL - George may be erratic at times though I think not for his age but he can play. Penny was simply a liability at times and had Quins just run Pryce at him all day as they should have they could easily have won. I really don't like bagging players but Penny has been criticised for the same flaws in his game since he started and has not improved at all IMO

However to suggest Penny had a better game makes me wonder where your starting point is! Basically he can't play RL - George may be erratic at times though I think not for his age but he can play. Penny was simply a liability at times and had Quins just run Pryce at him all day as they should have they could easily have won. I really don't like bagging players but Penny has been criticised for the same flaws in his game since he started and has not improved at all IMO.

I've never rated Penny but the quandary for Kear is who to play on the right wing because despite getting a good rap on here Greg Johnson hasn't been exactly safe as houses either. They've both played 4 games and scored once. If you look at the stats Johnson has made more errors and given more penalties away, made less carries and thus made less metres. They've both made the same amount of errors and tackle busts but Penny has made 2 clean breaks to Johnsons one. Johnson though has a couple of try assists to his name and has made more tackles, though he has missed more as well. i know it can be a case of lies, damned lies and statistics but the facts are that both are going to be targeted by the opposition and neither cope particularly well.

For me once Murphy is back he should go straight back into the centres with George back on one wing, Griffin on the other and see if that works. Does anyone know when Morton is likely to be fit?

The best way I can judge both of them is that I feel uneasy whenever George has or is near the ball and I feel very uneasy when Penny has or is near the ball. Neither fill me with confidence as they are both prone to stupid errors. George is clearly the better player but I just can't shake that uneasy feeling that to often he's a liability.

OK, I 'll play your game.

Remembering that the question was posed about leadership, as Jack mentioned...Ellis; or how about Monty Betham - his leading from the front was never questionable.

There are many in between too, but let's go right back; what about Ray Price?

I blame his afro!

I don't think he makes any more stupid errors than any of the others TBHI just think he is a player you notice more. I do think an extended run in the centres will help as IMO he isn't a natural winger and it's that position he is more likely to drop clangers. I'll stick my neck out here and say he is potentially as good a centre than Murphy, certainly more exciting.

I'll grant you one thing though, you wouldn't want him and Penny on the same side of the pitch

It's not a game, just a question - chill.

Ellis, he did OK and I'd imagine he'd do even better now but for me he wasn't the leader Morro seems to be and he was in a better more experienced team.

Monty Betham, come on you're having a laugh. Yes he was tough and led from the front as does Morro, however Morro is also a very good player. Beetham did his job as a captain and enforcer but as a playmaker he makes Lee look like Wally Lewis - he couldn't pass a ball.

Ray Price - now your talking. Problem is that Price was pre SL and it's a massively different game now. I find it really hard to compare players from two completely separate era's. I really don't know on that one but I'll stick with Morrisons.

Ellis - yes he was raw in his time for us, but was without doubt a stand out leader - obviously much better now. Not in Morro's class in his time with us.

Betham - discussion is about leadership - not playmaker - Betham was the real deal there.

Price - discussion started with comment about "best leader in 25 years"; Price was here in '86 and he was immense (and was 36 years old).

There are others too. Morro isn't the best leader we have had in 25 years (not yet anyway), but he will certainly end up being one of them.

Hold on why the semantics, you're entitled to your opinions as am I. I think Morrison is the best, you don't. However you appear to be stating you are right and all others are wrong - so who gave you the final word?

So in the belief that you are not the final word....

Surely a captain still has to be able to play well, if not we might as well still have JD on the field with a loadspeaker and a zimmer? I'm not knocking what Monty did for us but Morrison is simply a better player as well as a good captain which makes him of greater value in my book.

Also how good was Monty, the team he led was appalling until the last 6 games, was that not more down to Kear than Monty that we survived. Not a great advert for the lad was it?

As I say I find it really hard to judge Price against Morrison. However Price was with us for one season, this is Morrisons second and what a second it is. The team Price joined was an up and coming team, Morrison was at least on paper given one of the worst teams in the last 25 years. As I say, very hard to compare.

So I'll stick with Morrison thanks.

Where is the semantics in sticking to the parameters of the discussion??

You change the terms of the discussion (which is about leadership), to suit your arguments, then have a chelp about me assuming "the last word", whilst it's actually your opinion that counts!

My mistake to ever get into a discussion with the all-knowing Vastman.

You don't do discussion, you do argument.

You know that's not as daft as it sounds if you choose to single yourself out in such a way then you are more likely to be noticed and judged by supporters. Same with Penny and his stupid yellow boots as they suggest a player whose ego far, far outweighs his talent.



I agree that he is more of a centre than a winger not sure about the errors bit though maybe I'm being unfair but his errors do tend to stick out especially the one at Saints a few years back which I can never forgive him for!


Not sure I like having them both in the same team let alone the same side of the pitch, a throwback to the White/Pryce days!