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| Over the past few weeks, alot of people have been calling for Tommy to drop into 9, with Sam and Smith at 7 and 6 respectively.
Well, I think Noble did this yesterday, and if I'm honest I was relieved when Tommy went off and Riddell came back on at the end, their distribution was pretty much the same, but I didn't really see any darting runs from Tommy and I didn't think he offered us that much going forwards.
Any thoughts?
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| Quote ="Batesy"Over the past few weeks, alot of people have been calling for Tommy to drop into 9, with Sam and Smith at 7 and 6 respectively.
Well, I think Noble did this yesterday, and if I'm honest I was relieved when Tommy went off and Riddell came back on at the end, their distribution was pretty much the same, but I didn't really see any darting runs from Tommy and I didn't think he offered us that much going forwards.
Any thoughts?'"
I was not at the game yesterday as I did not make it back from holiday in time, but from what I have seen of tommy at hooker he has been pretty good, better than McIlorum.
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| My view is that Tommy is better at 9 than McIlorum.
This won't be a popular view with those who feel that Wigan-born lads should be in the team at any cost. But I honestly feel that McIlorum now comes a poor 3rd in our hooking states, and in that respect I don't know what future he has at the club.
I'd imagine, however, that IL and co will be loathe to let him go purely because of the criticism that would be again be heaped on us.
A bit of a conundrum.
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| Tommy was good at Scrum-Half yesterday, better than at hooker IMAO. Piggy started well then didn't really notice him - the 30m run did for him I think!
McIlorum is a tough one. He seems to have the skills, but he's in and out of the side so it's difficult to get an idea of what he can do week-in, week-out.
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| 2 points:
1. Tommy is our best SH
2. Tommy is a world cup winning hooker
until we get someone of equal or better ability to replace him at SH then he cant move
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| Quote ="[Gareth"2 points:
1. Tommy is our best SH
2. Tommy is a world cup winning hooker
until we get someone of equal or better ability to replace him at SH then he cant move'"
Your right on looking at previous form but potentially Smith (when he proves he can tackle) and Tomkins (when he developes a bit more) are better SH than Tommy.
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| Quote ="- Neil -"Your right on looking at previous form but potentially Smith (when he proves he can tackle) and Tomkins (when he developes a bit more) are better SH than Tommy.'"
Tomkins definately but im not convinced about smith and im pretty sure he wont be here after this year anyway.
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| Quote ="[Gareth"Tomkins definately but im not convinced about smith and im pretty sure he wont be here after this year anyway.'"
Personally id keep Tommy Piggy McIlloram Tomkins and still go for a recognised 6 and let Tomkins make the 7 spot his over the space of a few seasons.
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| McIlorum has been very poor this season IMO. Everytime he comes on I find myself counting the minutes until Riddell gets back on, and given how little Riddell has offered that's quite damning. At the moment Riddell is coming off second best to Higham (despite the fact that Riddell's passing is clearly sharper and more incisive) because he is showing, at best, only glimpses of what he can do. That said, I still think Riddell will continue to improve, and the top of his game is better than the top of Mickey's. I would definitely only use Riddell and Lulu at the moment.
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| Quote ="[Gareth"Tomkins definately but im not convinced about smith and im pretty sure he wont be here after this year anyway.'"
TL has agreed terms for his next contract at Wigan. I for one would like to see him stay.
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| Quote ="tyr"McIlorum has been very poor this season IMO. Everytime he comes on I find myself counting the minutes until Riddell gets back on, and given how little Riddell has offered that's quite damning. At the moment Riddell is coming off second best to Higham (despite the fact that Riddell's passing is clearly sharper and more incisive) because he is showing, at best, only glimpses of what he can do. That said, I still think Riddell will continue to improve, and the top of his game is better than the top of Mickey's. I would definitely only use Riddell and Lulu at the moment.'"
How, Riddell has made more metres than Higham this season, conceded less penalties and made fewer errors.
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| Tommy had already done half the game at 7 before moving to 9. At one point he was the only player giving us some go forward until Feka arrived.
I think Noble has this scenario in mind for the rest of the season.
Smith was excellent at 6 and it was good to see him do 80 mins.
Sam was good off the bench but took time to get up to the pace of the game. TL spelling with Piggy gives the team more options.
McIlorum hasn't been good with his distribution from dummy half. At some periods in the Saints game he looked like Higham mark2 his passing was that poor. His tackling though is great and he's one of the lads who's just signed a 3 year deal. A loan period to a NL1 club or maybe Celtic perhaps.
Sunday's squad will be Noble's "first team" for the rest of the season.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"How, Riddell has made more metres than Higham this season, conceded less penalties and made fewer errors.'"
I was going to ask the same question.
Granted, Riddell has been a bit of a disappointment so far, but he's shown what he can do in flashes (it would certainly help if the club could get him fit). But I can't see anything on which to base the statement that he's been second-best to Higham.
Though I always liked Mick Higham's work ethic, I rarely - if ever - came off after a match thinking "Micky really did it for us today."
As for this season, only Stevo seems to be hugely impressed - and we all know that that is part of his anti-Wigan agenda.
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| Quote ="Batesy"Over the past few weeks, alot of people have been calling for Tommy to drop into 9, with Sam and Smith at 7 and 6 respectively.
Well, I think Noble did this yesterday, and if I'm honest I was relieved when Tommy went off and Riddell came back on at the end, their distribution was pretty much the same, but I didn't really see any darting runs from Tommy and I didn't think he offered us that much going forwards.
Any thoughts?'"
As I see it the problem is the musical chairs that goes on when TL moves from 7 to 9 when Riddell goes off.
Instead of a simple bench interchange of the back up hooker coming on for the starting no 9 we end up with 9 going off, 7 going to 9, 6 going to 7 and the sub going to 6. And then the opposite when Riddell comes back on or some variation on that.
If TL is to play 9 it ought to be as one of the two 9's and that would mean starting from the bench with Smith as 7 and Tomkins as 6 all game.
I doubt this will happen though for a number of reasons. The main one is Noble who I just don't think has got the guts for any radical selections unless change is forced on him. If he had then by now he would have tried what I am saying above and also Lockers in the 2nd row alongside Hock with J Tomkins at 13.
Then we have the debate is Smith good enough anyway against stronger teams meaning we must play TL at 7 because there is no option. Well if that is true, then surely Smith needs to be dropped and the interchange hooker would be McIllorum. This would again leave the half backs alone when resting Riddell (a joke of a necessity in itself) so less disruptive once again.
I don't see how we can expect the team to adjust and continue to play the same way when Riddell going off causes so much of a change in players positions.
Dave
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| Quote ="Cruncher"My view is that Tommy is better at 9 than McIlorum.
This won't be a popular view with those who feel that Wigan-born lads should be in the team at any cost.
Mc Illorum is from Leeds
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| Quote ="Dai Jones"Quote ="Cruncher"My view is that Tommy is better at 9 than McIlorum.
This won't be a popular view with those who feel that Wigan-born lads should be in the team at any cost.
Mc Illorum is from Leeds'" '"
Ex-Academy lads then.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"My view is that Tommy is better at 9 than McIlorum.
This won't be a popular view with those who feel that Wigan-born lads should be in the team at any cost. But I honestly feel that McIlorum now comes a poor 3rd in our hooking states, and in that respect I don't know what future he has at the club.
I'd imagine, however, that IL and co will be loathe to let him go purely because of the criticism that would be again be heaped on us.
A bit of a conundrum.'"
Agreed. He is here for another year so I would consider loaning him out and let him gain some more first team experience at another club/different environment/coach etc. But atm he has done nothing this season. He simply just doesn't have any impact on the game when he comes off the bench. Which is a real shame because early signs indicated he was going to be a good player when he first started out. (Still might be)
But for me we are strongest when Tommy goes to hooker and I agree with what DaveO was saying about us starting a game with Leuluai/Riddell as our hookers for the match and to stop having these changes in the squad in just one substitution.
Although Smith had a good game I am still unsure on his defensive capabilities. Had Celtic been more clinical they could have posted a lot more points down that wing. Nevertheless it was not a real indication of how far the lad has come.
I would love to see Cameron Phelps given a shot at stand off because I think this is his best position and we would see a lot of what Phelps has to offer. I don't think he is confident enough at fullback and did a Mathers type error against Celtic. This would also allow Tomkins to move to his preferred position of scrum half.
So we would lineup something like this:
Stand off - Cameron Phelps
Scrum Half - Sam Tomkins
Hookers - Mark Riddell and Thomas Leuluai
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| Quote ="{Hogan}"TL has agreed terms for his next contract at Wigan. I for one would like to see him stay.'"
I would. Hes one of our better more consistant performers the point I was making is he is an average scrum half but a world class 9 and I can see Tim Smith and Tomkins being much better utilised at Scrum half or stand off than Tommy is.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"How, Riddell has made more metres than Higham this season, conceded less penalties and made fewer errors.'"
Riddell is averaging seven more meters per game then Higham. Hardly a significant difference and he is hardly error or penalty free either.
And Riddell has scored fewer tries, has fewer try assists, made fewer tackles, fewer offloads and fewer dummy half runs than Higham. And that is without the basic schoolboy maths of averaging them stats out.
So basically the only significant playing statistic (runs, tackles tries and so on) Riddell is better than Higham on is meters per game by a whopping 7 meters a game. On all the rest Higham is better and of course if anyone slags Lockers off for too many penalties that is, we are told, because he is more involved in the game so it's bound to happen. So the same must apply to Higham and one thing is for sure is that he will be more involved in the game than Riddell who is rivalling Feka for bench warming.
Anyone suggesting Riddell is outplaying Higham this season based on three selectively chosen statistics is clearly guilty of wishful thinking.
Dave
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| Quote ="DaveO"Riddell is averaging seven more meters per game then Higham. Hardly a significant difference and he is hardly error or penalty free either.
And Riddell has scored fewer tries, has fewer try assists, made fewer tackles, fewer offloads and fewer dummy half runs than Higham. And that is without the basic schoolboy maths of averaging them stats out.
So basically the only significant playing statistic (runs, tackles tries and so on) Riddell is better than Higham on is meters per game by a whopping 7 meters a game. On all the rest Higham is better and of course if anyone slags Lockers off for too many penalties that is, we are told, because he is more involved in the game so it's bound to happen. So the same must apply to Higham and one thing is for sure is that he will be more involved in the game than Riddell who is rivalling Feka for bench warming.
Anyone suggesting Riddell is outplaying Higham this season based on three selectively chosen statistics is clearly guilty of wishful thinking.
Dave'"
What he said.
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| Quote ="DaveO"Riddell is averaging seven more meters per game then Higham. Hardly a significant difference and he is hardly error or penalty free either.
And Riddell has scored fewer tries, has fewer try assists, made fewer tackles, fewer offloads and fewer dummy half runs than Higham. And that is without the basic schoolboy maths of averaging them stats out.
So basically the only significant playing statistic (runs, tackles tries and so on) Riddell is better than Higham on is meters per game by a whopping 7 meters a game. On all the rest Higham is better and of course if anyone slags Lockers off for too many penalties that is, we are told, because he is more involved in the game so it's bound to happen. So the same must apply to Higham and one thing is for sure is that he will be more involved in the game than Riddell who is rivalling Feka for bench warming.
Anyone suggesting Riddell is outplaying Higham this season based on three selectively chosen statistics is clearly guilty of wishful thinking.
Dave'"
It should also be remembered that in Warringtons first 4 matches (approx, not sure exactly how many) Higham played for the full 80 mins in each.
I also think that the way that everyone goes on about the amount of "dummy half runs" is totally irrelevant. You could scoot from acting half every tackle, but it doesnt mean youve done well if the defence had controlled the tackle and you make no yards. Its about spotting the opportunities when they arrive and being clinical.
Riddel is averaging 3metres more per carry!
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| Quote ="DaveO"Riddell is averaging seven more meters per game then Higham. Hardly a significant difference and he is hardly error or penalty free either.
And Riddell has scored fewer tries, has fewer try assists, made fewer tackles, fewer offloads and fewer dummy half runs than Higham. And that is without the basic schoolboy maths of averaging them stats out.
So basically the only significant playing statistic (runs, tackles tries and so on) Riddell is better than Higham on is meters per game by a whopping 7 meters a game. On all the rest Higham is better and of course if anyone slags Lockers off for too many penalties that is, we are told, because he is more involved in the game so it's bound to happen. So the same must apply to Higham and one thing is for sure is that he will be more involved in the game than Riddell who is rivalling Feka for bench warming.
Anyone suggesting Riddell is outplaying Higham this season based on three selectively chosen statistics is clearly guilty of wishful thinking.
Dave'"
Ha ha are you honestly being serious with this one?
Higham is one of the worst hookers Wigan have ever had! A one trick scooting pony and even he couldn't even do that well
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| We're only a third of the way through the season and the signs are already there that we aren't going to see the best of Riddell this season.
It makes sense to me that playing Riddell/Leuluai at 9 would benefit the team the most allowing the Stand Off/Scrum Half slots to be occupied by more naturally, creative players than Tommy is.
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| I still think the best way to play it would be to start Sam and Tommy at 6 and 7.
Piggy at 9
And have Smith coming off the bench to replace Piggy, and then put Smith to 7 (or 6 depending if you want Sam at 6 or 7) and Tommy to 9.
Also, maybe when Sam and Smith play together then dont play them as a set 6 and 7. I have heard that Hull KR played Cooke and Dobson at 6 and 7, but let them change around and just both play as a half backs. Then the defence would expect to find one of them in a position and they werent there but someone else was there.
I feel this could be used with Sam and Smith.
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| Quote ="thepriestman85"Ha ha are you honestly being serious with this one?
Higham is one of the worst hookers Wigan have ever had! A one trick scooting pony and even he couldn't even do that well'"
I take it you never saw Mark Reber...
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