Ok, first off apologies for sounding all preachy (if that's a word) here, but!

I don't know about other people, but personally I am getting a bit sick of all the personal character assassination going on of various people at the club, players coaches admin etc. Most of it is either ill-informed, opinionated, reactionary or just out unjustified. It's happening every year now and wearing a bit thin.

Mathers was pilloried before playing a game, the poor lad can't do right for doing wrong and is obviously going to be this years Vaeliki, Calderwood, Moran, Brown, Hodgson et al, and the next one chased out by the fans who can't accept that we are not as dominant on the park as we were in the late 80's and 90's.

The very same people that are criticising the fact that there were 9 antipodeans in the team on sunday are the very ones that are calling for the head of the only brit in the back line to be replaced by whoever.

Now for whatever reason this may be the right call, but it is damn obvious that whoever gets the roll will be next in line, we've seen it happen with Brown and seen it happen with Goulding. As a group, I don't think there is a greater expectation from any other fans, nor are they as quick to turn. I've no doubt the same will happen to Sam Tomkins when he has his first ordinary game, and he will.

The booing of the team is no doubt been brewing for some time, against Hudds last year was probably deserved, but I fear that it will become the norm now, with peoples character questioned at every stage. I've seen the words 'coward' used to describe Mathers which I feel is wrong on many levels, anyone that pulls on a shirt to play a game is not a coward, things are not going right for the lad, they may infact never go right for him, but that is for him, the coach and the chairman to figure out, not for fans to be brutally slating him...

Same goes for Bailey, another who does a lot more than people give credit for, and probably 2/3 of the squad, is it any wonder that they too are losing patience with the crowd? I'm not saying its right, it isn't, but I can see how they would think like that.

Our problems are deeper rooted than the odd player, there is an issue with leadership imho, that we've had since Farrell left, and you can't easily just go out and buy a player that can resolve that.

Yes, lets criticise and discuss errors, tactics, selection based on true form, potential signings etc, but please lay off the personal stuff.

reasoned and well thought out comment like that won't go down well with a few people on here. As you say, it's one thing coming up with constructive criticism, but personal attacks on players contribute nothing. Neither does the spreading of vicious and often ill informed (at best) rumours.

There is a fine line between those who just want to slate players and those who want to talk about their on field attributes in detail.

I do agree there people who become to personal in regards to players.

great post , couldnt agree more , although im still on a downer from sunday

:1ih3u7vg

And with regard to people involved in the management of the club, and yes, they're often based on rumour, speculation or innate ill will.

But many negative comments on here are also centred on performances, tactics (or lack of them), team motivation (or lack of it) etc, and in that respect they are justified. I don't like negativity for the sake of it. I've said this many times and have had running battles with those I suspect (or in some cases [i:1ih3u7vgknow[/i

Great post Memony .It sums up just what I and am sure plenty others have been thinking the last couple of days on here.

As many people know I am a strong supporter of Noble, and on Sunday, although I didn't go the radio commentary said it all for me and painted an all too familiar picture. I admit I felt badly let down and initially my reaction (in anger) was to want Noble out, I slated his tactics, team selections and questioned his coaching credentials, albeit I didn't post it up on here. But when the dust settled and I calmed down, I realised that personal insults towards Noble aren't justified, he picked a team that IMO should of beat Wakefield, whether Hock and Feka started or not, on paper we were more than capable of putting 30+ on them, however in reality it never turned out that way.

People have thier opinions on Mathers and I've voiced mine several times, although I have not and will not resort to personal insults, I do not think he is good enough. I hope he proves me wrong, I hope he proves everyone wrong, but as Memony said, he can't do right for doing wrong. If we want Mathers to actually play well, we need to get behind him.

What happened to the support for all the players in 2006? IMO all the team were worse than Mathers is now but we never once booed them, we cheered them, we got behind them and we came good. Is it not feasable to practice the same logic with Mathers? Or are some fans minds made up?

Either way, I for one surely know which approach to Mathers will help him.

The performances haven't been good enough and it's been that way now for a long time. I'm sorry if people with their head in the sand don't like it but serious questions need to be asked. How can anyone be happy with the shower of that was served up in Cherry and White on Sunday? It was just a continuation of the poor performances from the previous season.

How long can we continue to go on and blame players season after season David Vaileki, Milard, Withers and Fletcher then the season after it’s all Colbon’s, Calderwood and Highams fault and constantly say next season will be better when we’ve got rid of the dead wood. We’ve even started it this season with Mathers, Bailey and Phelps! When can we start to look at maybe it’s Noble who isn’t doing his job?

It's not a case of liking or disliking Noble but looking at and discussing why our team consistently underperforms for the majority of the season.

sorry......cant agree.

dont some players and management look on here??

so if they are underperforming and playing as bad as mathers did on sunday, would it be more helpful to him to say "you did ok, never mind"....or would it be better to say "mathers , you played crap"

turning a blind eye to bad play doesnt help anyone.

blunt, honest opinion does, although it may sound harsh and brutal, it helps in the long run.

ignoring the fact that certain players play crap week in week out is the best way to get em to carry on playing crap, as it leads them to believe the performances they are putting in are acceptable......when in fact , they arnt acceptable.

What personal stuff are you referring to?

I assume you mean speculation about a players health problems or stuff like than and not comments about their ability?

Or are you suggesting criticism of certain players is over the top which is not the same thing?

Bandwagon's do tend to form against certain players and it was pretty evident to me at the game on Sunday Mathers mistakes were picked on more than other players by the crowd for example. I sometimes think people join these bandwagon's because their mates do whether they have seen the game or not!

However it works the other way as well. Lockers is a a golden boy in many peoples eyes and can do no wrong.

Dave

I think that there is a distinction to be made between people saying "Mathers played crap on Sunday" and people saying "Mathers is crap". The first expresses disappointment and demands improvement, while the second displays nothing constructive.
As for players believing that performances are acceptable when they are not, I don't buy it. They know when they've had bad games, regardless of whether or not anyone tells them.
Further, if criticism is made with the intent of informing management of our opinion, it should be contstructively and articulately made. Simply saying (for example) "Feka's a fat lump of sh*te" isn't going to persuade anyone and will more than likely be dismissed as evidence that the poster is drunk or has a personal vendetta against Feka. On the other hand, saying something like "Mathers' positional play in defence was acceptable, but was undone by his weak one on one tackling, which was ineffectual at worst and dangerous close to foul play at best. In attack he failed to support the ball carrier and was therefore nowhere to be found just when an extra man coming into the line was needed. " is much harder to dismiss. I still doubt that any coach is going to look to fans' opinion for guidance in analysing the performance of his players, but there we go.
In my opinion, if we wish to motivate players, telling them they are rubbish is not the way to go about it. Booing them off the pitch is the right of fans, but must be used sparingly, I believe. After the Hudds game last season, it was a much needed wake-up call. Do it every week and it becomes counter-productive. For better or worse, these are the players we have this season. They are not going anywhere anytime soon. We need to balance our support and our criticism to get the best out of them. Ultimately, we want the players who play poorly to feel sorry for letting us down, to think, "those guys supported me and I let them down, I've got to do better", rather than thinking "they all hate me anyway and I get paid either way, screw 'em". Get them to see that the reason we are angry is that we demand better and we expect better...and we just may get better. Let them think that we expect nothing from them anyway, and where does their motivation come from?
I should just say that I quoted wigan pie man to help me answer a couple of general points. I am in no way saying that he advocates constantly slating the players and fully understand that he is talking about criticising for constructive and honest reasons.

yeah...good theory...

...sounds like a feckin politician...


He earns more money than we will ever earn....If I think he's a knob-head, I'll tell him...and whats more...on that money...he should walk round the pitch at the end and take it.

Mathers does not look like he is willing to put his body on the line. Everyone see that and thats why people have called him a coward. Although i dont agree with getting on a players back during the game, like happened on Sunday. How is that going to help us!? Some of our supporters are embarassing when it comes to things like that.

I think the ironic cheers at the game for Richie Mathers did nothing to help his confidence and nothing to help the team. Some of the things put on here about Richie have been constructive whilst some of it has just been to bag him for the sake of it. Like others have said you will always (sadly) get your scapegoat and then you will always get players who can never do any wrong.

I don't like seeing fans getting on players backs at the ground but I have no problem with them calling players out on here as long as it is fair and not personal.

Thankfully the personal stuff on here stops a long way short of some of the disgusting stuff I have seen on my football teams (SWFC) forum, one particular peace of pondlife wished one of our players and his family would die in a car car crash!!!!

I wondered that as well.

I don't think that the abuse the players have got since Sunday is over the top. At the moment their is valid reason to criticise all aspects of the club (potentially with the exception of Mick Hogan who got us the Mecca deal). I don't think anyone has got overly personal, and if they did, that is surely what the moderation process is for.

Well said Memony.

I can't believe some people on here questioned Bailey's defence. The lad made 39 tackles.

It's not a lack of leadership as much as a lack of professionalism which certain/the majority of our players seem to struggle with and it's a disgrace for elite players. They have to take responsibility for it rather than hiding behind lack of leadership.

And let in a crucial try.

Normally I'd regard Bailey as a dependable defender. But against Wakey he was skinned in one instance which led straight to a Wakey score. If he's going to let fast lads run around him, then, given that he doesn't offer much else apart from defence, I don't see how he can be selected ahead of Harrison Hansen or Joel Tomkins.

When was he skinned that led to Wakefield scoring? I can only remember him getting skinned once and that didn't lead to a try. He is put out there to make our awful right sided defence more solid imo and I don't think he does that bad of a job.

At the end of the day we all want the club to do well and enjoy the success. This is a fans forum so we have every right to slate players and vent our frustration, and frankly if the players don't like it they shouldn't read anything on this site. Also it is fun to have these types of discussion. I would defend that right absolutely.

However one thing I have noticed about the British culture, is that you are either a hero or you are absolutely zero. There appears to be no middle path, and that seems to apply to this forum. The treatment that has been given to some of the past players has been truly disgusting (e.g. Moran). On the other hand players like Edwards are seen as having done nothing wrong, ever. Surely, in the interest of the club we should find a middle path.

Personally I think as fans, we have a responsibility to moderate our opinions so that they support the club, not tear it down. In other words, I don't believe in criticising individual players, other than to say they are not good enough, and should be replaced (just my opinion). I will also aggressively criticise them if I don't think they are trying hard enough, or have a really poor attitude. After all we are paying fans. Other than that I will not have a go at them.

With respect to Mathers, I am asking myself if he will turn out to be good enough - right now I doubt it, but I still think he needs time. So I will go out there as a fan and support him publicly, because he plays for my team, and represents our interests. The only guy who should really be criticising him, is the coach, and that should be done in a private way.

I will however have a go at the coach - because he is in the firing line. He has to get the tactics, player selection, and discipline right. If that keeps going wrong then to me he deserves criticism. Right now I think the frustration is that we seem to be getting all three of these areas wrong. And although we have been one game off of the GF for the last two years, I do expect improvement, and Brian has had enough time to get it right. Still it is very early days, and I will reserve my criticism until later.

Because as a fan sometimes you just have to bite your tongue in order to support your club - even when they frustrate you.

Right lets start

Mathers at the start of last season i was looking forward to him coming playing here just come back from an injury give the lad a few games to settle in but the fact remains he had more red cards that tries last season (even if you count the playoffs),players went through him like a knife through butter and at times he didn't look like he wanted to be on the pitch

Bailey ok we all know he isn't a but when bailey wasn't on the pitch last season our defence went to pot he does a shed load of work in that area he just needs to inprove his attack

I remeber when noble first signed for us and my girlfriends dad said to me he was chatting with a guy at bradford and most of the fans seem annoyed at noble for some of the decisions he makes and i think thats creeping in here, you cant argue with his record but it's the same old boring rugby week in week out we need second phase in our game cause at the moment our play is so predictable

Jeez Dave, let it go. It's becoming an obsession.

What is you problem with what I posted? Some players seem beyond criticism (of which Lockers is one) while for others they cop more than they deserve and people leap on the bandwagon as its fashionable. That was the point I was making, which I am sure you and everybody else knew.

Dave

an he s still e