I posted this in another thread about rugby union
A quick click onto the articles shows that club rugby union, to which IL perhaps referred to as opposed to RU as a whole, isn't exactly rosey.

And just because a director has more money, doesn't mean they're better for your club?
Would you like to swap IL to have Dave W back?
Did Richard Branson have a positive effect on the London club?

If RU clubs wanted to cut their cloth, they would be doing given some of the losses some clubs are making, however in order to remain competitive some are willing to take the loss. "RU clubs are simply overspending", isn't that the case with most SL as well then?

I also don't know where you get this "Your argument is also based on the premise that the sugar daddies will walk away or not be replaced by other" comes from because I've never stated anything of the sort, just that Lenegan will be in a much better position than you to know where we stand. The fact a number of RU clubs are propped up by sugar daddies is evidence of that. They are not self-sustaining despite the much higher revenue streams, Wigan now are self-sustaining and turning an operating profit therefore Lenegan is correct.

Your argument is obviously based on the premise that the RU is reliant on sugar daddies not walking away because if they continue their support (or if others are waiting in the wings to buy clubs and continue to support them if they pull out) then there just isn't an issue, their ability to soak up the "huge losses "you mention isn't therefore relevant.

There's so much wishful thinking here. I've no doubt some RU clubs will get into difficulty from time to time, as some football clubs do (and as lots of RL clubs do, which you seem to ignore!). But the revenue streams mean that even if the wealthy lose interest in RU the RU clubs will survive in the long term as much bigger clubs than SL clubs.

We just have to face up to the reality that RU at club level is now a bigger game than RL at club level. The growth in their game has been massive. Even if the sugar daddy support were taken away RU would cope. Some clubs might need to go into admin, restructure and cut their wages bill. At the end of that process they almost all be in better shape than SL clubs.

Don't forgot though that some RU clubs don't even have or particularly need wealthy backers. Leicester's turnover is c£20m and they make a small profit. That's almost four times Wigan's turnover. Ashton's team the RU Saints have a turnover of over £12m and make a profit (c£500k last time I think). Compare that to the RL Saints....

Time has moved on and RL has been left behind.

There is nothing in that article that is news. IL said the same things at the press conference and interviews afterwards and Joel's situation remains unclear. It is pretty typical of that rag in that it puts out "news" articles with not bloody news in them!

Northampton made about 6.5% profit on their turnover of about £12m last season, about £800,000. Not £500,000 as Deano stated. Not sure of the exact figure but it in the £12m / £800K ball bark.

I don't think there is any RL club doing a 6.5% profit on turnover but that isn't the point. While they "only" have £800K to spend so to speak meaning they could not raid RL for several players as a club, what they can clearly do is pay their (much higher) costs which is going to be mostly wages.

So they can pay the high wages RU offers and still turn a very healthy net profit.

IL must be talking about different clubs to Northampton, Leicester and Sarries.

For the 2nd time (hopefully this time the penny will drop) no it isn't based on the reliance of sugar daddies. It's based on the fact of the losses sustained by a number of RU clubs, with or without a sugar daddy.



Some RU clubs make profits, some RL clubs do. Some RU clubs need sugar daddies to survive, so do some RL clubs. In terms of Wigan RL, which is what Lenegan was talking about we are in a better position than most RU clubs because we are able to live within our means, nothing what you've said so far backs up your initial argument that what Lenegan said was wrong.

I think it's us, Leeds, Hull and the Dire who have been able to turn a profit in the last couple of years in RL, so there's always an exception to the rule. It's quite correct to say that the finances in Premiership football are a basket case, despite the fact Man U can turn a big profit and the large revenues involved generally, but to be competitive most clubs are living beyond their means.

In turns of RL, I don't have the figures to compare against that 6.5%, but I know we are nowhere near based on last year's accounts. Not sure about Saracens making a profit, Gloucester have in the past.

I take issue with football using basket case financing. Football and most sports work on a very well tried and tested financial system.
Its called a pyramid scheme. New owners come in chase success and mortgage the club. Club is then sold to a bigger financer who does the same. Repeat adinfinitum. Club eventually runs out of new money men or has cash flow problems leading to them not being able to pay a tax bill. Suddenly everone financing the club realises that not all the champions league title for the next twenty years could repay this debt. So they give up and go home leaving a club with no cash and no resources. Club goes into admin.creditors accept something rather than nothing from local business man who offers to buy to save club. The club is then run sensibly for a few years. The fans get restless not chasing the dream chairman feels pressure and caves in or sells to someone wishing to please fans and so begins the cyle again. In the end sport is financed on hope.

Hope of a better team.
Hope of success
Hope of being associated to success
Hope of getting a big contract.
Hope of getting paid for services rendered.

If we lived in a country where debts where paid in jail time you would see alot less risk taking over chasing a dream byond the size of the finances and the assets to bear the weight.

Thanks Dave. I couldn't remember the exact figures, glad I underestimated rather than overestimated the profit figures as I know that would have brought criticism on me from certain quarters.

The point about turnover is that a large part of this will be wages and a good proportion player wages. So RU clubs will be able to massively outbid RL clubs for players.

OK. I'm glad you've cleared up the sugar daddy issue raised in your 2.24pm post, it took a while to get there.

I'm glad you've also now acknowledged that lots of RL clubs make a loss.

Back to IL's comments, when he took over Wigan RL our revenue was sub £5m and we were making a significant loss (DaveO I don't suppose you have the figures to hand?) under DW's ownership. IL cut Wigan's expenditure a bit and took steps to increase revenue slightly to balance the books. I'm sure if he took over an RU club he could do the same there.

If he's suggesting that Wigan's turnover and profits put it in a stronger position than most RU clubs then that is just nonsense. Stronger how? Is he expecting them all to go bust and not buy up RL talent any more? That is just wishful thinking. RU clubs are already bigger than RL clubs; any financial difficulties casued by overspending will not weaken RU clubs to the point that Wigan can stop them from taking any players they want. It's just nonsense.

I've never denied that RL clubs make a loss so why you bring that up only you know?

It's pretty obviously why Lenegan thinks we are in a strong position compared to most RU clubs - we live within our means and the club is self-financing now. Most RU clubs are running a loss, some massively so. It goes back to my original point you assume revenue as a measure of financial health while ignoring the costs associated with it.

But in what way are Wigan in a strong position compared to RU clubs? Does he really think they are going to go bust and we'll be able to buy up their players? What on earth does he mean? It's just utter nonsense. We are in a weak position and even if a few RU clubs get into financial difficulties we will remain in a weak position.

Well given the quote he obviously thinks we aren't "in a mess" and he'd be right.

Losing one of our most promising young players to RU, no doubt to be followed before long by his brother, the most talented player to emerge in at least a decade of British RL.... that is hardly a great position is it?

I can't say that I'm happy about it (I doubt you are, really, though for whatever reason you have decided to back IL's comments) and it would be good if IL would acknowledge that things need to change rather than hoping that the RU Premiership will implode. Because it is just not going to happen.

As I said, I have a great deal of respect and gratitude for what IL has done to turn things around at the club on and off the field, but when he speaks as a club owner it is often difficult to agree with him.

The problem is you've read far too much into a throwaway quote to the local rag. We're stronger than the mess some clubs find themselves in (both RU and RL), it's one thing we should be thankful of.

Have you actually read the article?



The quote begins "I’m not worried about rugby union”. He may not be, but I am!



If this was a "throwaway quote" IL needs to be more careful with what he says to the local rag, it doesn't read well....

Yes I've read it thanks. And as I've said about 5 times now his point still stands.

Well, we'll just have to continue to disagree then!

A player to target would be Joe Arundel at Cas. Going to be a star that lad.

No we won't.

Whatever money we get for Joel, put it on the table for their young hooker + Arundel.

just found this artical about joel and his union move; www.superleaguefans.com/wigan-wa ... witch.html source is the sun though, but still it shows things are moving!

just found this artical about joel and his union move; www.superleaguefans.com/wigan-wa ... witch.html source is the sun though, but still it shows things are moving!

Clark? We(Wire) have been linked with him. A huge area of improvement for both us and you. Both have great starting hookers(TL & Monas) but both lose alot when interchanges are made. I'd actually put TL in the Roby, Monas class.

Get Tom Briscoe in to play with Josh Charnley, and would Kirk Yeaman ever be worth a shout? Ive heard a few rumours about him?