That's the main issue for me. It's difficult for the clubs and it's players but even worse for the fans.

I don't even give it a seconds thought attending the cup final now if Wigan aren't there because I go to every Grand Final regardless of us being in it. I know that the Grand Final day with my ticket and a day session will cost £150+ so I keep my money in my pocket.

It needs to be moved to May/June without any question IMO.

And as for a Spring CCF clashing with Premiership play-offs, FA Cup Final, etc: well, we managed in the past; what's different now?

Don't think it helped the Hull City were hosting Man Utd .

Part of the problem regarding neutral support is that today only Super League clubs are ever going to win it. Consequently a large number of fans have been disenfranchised.
In the past cup rugby was always more intense and brutal than league rugby and the majority of teams had a realistic chance of having a good cup run.

If that's the case, Warrington must have been hosting a combined Barcelona and Real Madrid side, with free entry!

I only ever go when Wigan are playing, but I have noticed that we see a lot less neutral shirts these days, compared to the 80s and 90s.

Was just about to post similar. The Hull following looked very good (although I think they'd have taken even more if it hadn't been for that Hull City game).

I'm all for tradition but does anybody think we should move the final to Cardiff? I think the millennium stadium is a fabulous spot for a big game with it being slap bang in the City.

The capacity of 74,000ish feels a better fit as well. Sometimes you can't always stick to tradition is fit isn't the right thing for the game.

Asked that question elsewhere earlier, I said no, even though Cardiff is much better and nearer for me, and I loved it when the CCF was held there.

And I suppose my main reason, other than the continuity of tradition, was just the media footprint aspect of it. For a London-centric media, a big sporting event at Wembley can't be ignored. A game in Cardiff could be regarded as just another regional matter. Or, worse, be portrayed as some kind of failure of the sport in genera;.

But, I agree the MS is a cracking venue, and the price of a pint more acceptable than in London. Hmm...

Hull have had a good support base for many years and their fans are willing to travel even though their geographical location is far from ideal. I'm not sure why they have such loyal fans but maybe there's something all teams could learn from them.

Those days are not so Long Gone........

2010 Carnegie Challenge Cup
Attendance 85,217
Winners Warrington Wolves
Runners-up Leeds Rhinos

but in all fairness something isn't right the only other 80k plus crowd was the first final at the new Wembley and that involved Catalan so something has to be done to get the neutrals back down there, like they obviously did for that first final.....

NO two clubs will ever fill Wembley with their own fans not Wigan Leeds Bradford Bulls or other Super supported massive clubs.....

on the other hand I wouldn't object to Cardiff in future as a few have suggested but I cant see that happening....

Their support in the semi and the finals this year has been very good. It's always tough to judge what a good away following us for them due to their location but it's certainly looked good in the Yorkshire based games.

They could do with increasing their home support mind. There's no reason why they couldn't average 14,000/15,000 with a successful side.

Living in London now I decided to pop down to watch it. Never been as a neutral before. No chance the crowd was that. I was in the upper tier of the Warrington corner and there was nobody around. Hull definitely brought more but even so, I reckon the real figure of people sat there was around 50-55k. Still atmosphere was good. Barely saw any neutral shirts. To be honest, for the first time it felt hostile in a few parts. Was walking behind a group of 5 Wigan fans, a Hull fan let them walk past before stopping me (walking on my own) to tell me about how poor our support was. Also saw a woman wearing a CasHullFord shirt smack a Warrington fan in the face on the way out over something or other. Isolated incidents for sure but certainly didn't feel as friendly as it has done in past years.

The neutral support is definitely down on what it has been probably largely down to cost of the tickets and travel. And this time of the year is certainly not ideal hopefully the great game of show this time can draw some more deport for the next final!!

took over 2000 to saints in the cc cup although it was free coach travel

league games, we have taken good numbers to all away games, including the ones over the pennines

even if we attract another 1500 hundred pass holders its progress

Never in a million years was that a 76000 attendance. I sat up in the gods and had about 10 rows of empty seats in front of us. I'd say the top tier (39000 capacity) was about half full at best, and the club Wembley seats (16500 capacity) were almost empty. They are clearly counting these towards the attendance. Bottom tier was full, I'd say the attendance was closer to 55000.

Fantastic day out regardless but doesn't look great on tv, maybe it's time to start offering the middle tier to the competing team's fans, and the upper tier at a cheaper price? Better filling them on the cheap than not at all.

Wire fans didn't turn up in huge numbers because it's just another home fixture. Not a novelty anymore.

Good bit of bravado, though there is some truth in what you say. Appearing at Wembley four times in eight years is likely to get boring for your hangers-on. But you'll note from other comments that it isn't the absence of Wire fans at Wembley that's the problem. It's the absence of neutrals. The Challenge Cup Final doesn't feel like the massive attraction that it once was due to its second rate status in the eyes of our owners at Sky, and the high price of travel, tickets, burgers, beer etc hardly help with that.

All this "doesn't look good on TV" stuff, is it really that important?

Worth bearing in mind that in the all-singing, all-dancing NRL, the Cowboys and JT play every week in front of crowds Wigan or Saints would be ashamed of (14-15000), and the likes of the Rabbitohs play most of their home games in massive, almost deserted stadia.

I don't think it's that vital in itself, especially as memories of the 95,000 we used to boast fade ... but it feels like it adds to the demise of the Challenge Cup Final as a major RL event. Plus, it's the only part of the game that is exposed on national TV (apart from the occasional Test match, so many of which end in disappointment). It might only be a cosmetic victory, finding some way to bump Wembley back up to a full house, but I think we need to try.

Having a few poor finals in a row surely doesn't help. Neutrals watching Wigan v Hull FC, Leeds v Cas and Leeds v Hull KR weren't exactly spoiled. Hopefully a close final this year with the underdog winning will help next year's crowd.

As mentioned, I don't think the move to August was smart either. Having it so close to the Grand Final makes it feel secondary to me. When it was in April/May the cup games kept my focus far more as the games weren't as spread out, there was an imminent chance of making a final, and by comparison the league games around that time felt less urgent as there's always loads of games still to go when the cup is on. I also think having the big CC games later on detracts from the Super 8s.

The vivid red seating at Wembley doesn't help the cause as this simply emphasises where there are gaps in the crowd.

The obvious timing for me would be at the end of the first phase, before the super 8s. It's a nice bridge between the 2 halves of the season and would only bring the competition forward 1 round

Another big problem with this, I think, is that the genie's out of the bottle.

Too many clubs have proved in recent years that it's possible to get to Wembley having played no-one of significance. In other words, by luck.

That doesn't really apply to the Grand Final, which is only reached by beating the best.

There may still, because of others factors - like Wigan totally losing the plot in 2001 - be one-sided Grand Finals. But at least there is no doubt that the two teams there have proved themselves. In comparison to that, Wembley feels like a bit of a circus. This year's final was great - it would have graced OT no problem, but last year's did immeasurable damage to the competition.

I think that's a good idea. I doubt it will happen though. Sky have a vested interest in ensuring that any RL competition where TV rights rest with another broadcaster takes second place by a long way to their Grand Final - and given that the RFL are in bed with Sky (remember the last time the RFL negotiated SL TV rights with Sky without any other competitors?), there is no impetus to promote the CC competition within a fixture schedule that is controlled by Red Hall.

I also think they purposefully schedule the CC final at the same time as the Super 8's to make it as difficult as possible for one team to win both as a 'levelling tactic'.