I'm not looking forward to this series at all.

If we lose by less than 30 points against the Aussies with that line up, I'd be amazed.

We have a respectable, if not brilliant, pack but our backs are just so ordinary. Only Tomkins is up to international class and he's playing way off his peak because he's injured/contemplating RU.

We always used to say that the thing about the Aussies was that they have strength in depth and could pick another 17 that was almost as good as the first team. Sadly we can now say the same about England, but it's mediocrity in depth, I'm afraid.

I seriously think Ben Westwood would be a revelation at prop against the Aussies, I think he should have a bash at prop

According to the BBC Wilkin is claiming to be in the form of his life.

[urlhttp://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/rugby_league/15290003.stm[/url

I should really have a dig at him, but I can't muster the enthusiasm even to take the p%ss out of a Stains player.

Forgot he'd picked Ellis in the squad - In which case id drop heightingon for him....looks alot stronger then.

The thing with Wilkin is he's a decent SL player but he isn't international standard and thinks he's Wally Lewis instead of a 2nd rower.

You get JJB who isn't the best 2nd rower in the world but he will graft and put big hits in and play hard, I just think Wilkin is a 'cherry on the cake' sort of player where he would stand out playing for a good side but isn't good enough on his own to make much of a difference against the Aussies and Kiwis.

I think his bench spot should be used instead on Carvell, Griffin or Bailey, someone with a bit of 'sshyit' in em to ruffle the Aussies.

People may laugh at Bailey but when he starts acting the prat it ruffles the opposition and I think that's something we need to do against the Aussies, if we go out to play a normal game of Rugby League against the Aussies we will get stuffed but if we 'put it up em' we stand half a chance.

Wilkin is nothing more than a "Flat Track Bully"
The only thing noticeable about him in regards to this seasons GF is his newspaper article, I can't remember him doing anything more than tackle in the final, he definitely didn't want the ball that often

He would never get in any international side of mine unless he has distant Scottish. Welsh or Irish parentage

Sorry to say this but anyone who isn't picking heighington at least in the 17 needs to spend some time watching some NRL games.

Sam
Hall
Reed
Yeaman
Briscoe
Widdop
Chase
Morley
Roby
Graham
Westwood
Ellis
Heighington

Sinfield
Peacock
Carvell
J J-B

That's from the squad he picked, but I'd like to have seen Mossop in that squad. And I think it's time Peacock ended his international career. Not saying he's bad, I'd just like to see some younger lads in that squad.

Who is this Sam everyone keeps referring too? Bob Sam? John Sam? Dave Sam? Phil Sam? Who does this 'Sam' guy play for??

Any ticket updates? Can we pay on the day?

It shows how you little you know about what Wilkin contributes. Remember the Exiles game? Wilkin was one of the two players who made a clean break (the other being James Graham). He tackles his heart out regardless of who he is playing for, always ending a match at the top end of tackles completed. His support play is excellent and he can pull off some tremendous passes. All these things are positives. Just because he doesn't do 'big hits' doesn't mean he isn't of value. His weaknesses are lack of pace, inconsistent kicking (sometimes fantastic; sometimes atrocious) and occasional lack of discipline leading to a penalty.

Did joel not go the full length to score or was i watching something else, there is no way you can try and say wilkin is one of the first players to put hes hand up and take a big drive when its needed because hes not the kind of player. yeah he is a good defender but you have westwood and elis who can tackle for a day if they needed to. and we don't need another play making forward if sinfield is going to be played anywhere.

Against aus and new zealand you know your going to be starting your set deep in your own half so you need as much forward power to get out of there or you will start conceding points.

I don't know what Joel Tomkins has to do with a discussion about Jon Wilkin?

Anyway, Jon Wilkin is extremely good defensively but, as I also said, he is an extremely good support player and he [idoes[/i make breaks. His passing can also be sublime. He performs just as well at international level as he does at club level. He will have his role to play just as the other team members do.

Because you said this:




In the Exiles game Joel Tomkins broke through and ran to score a full length try.


You're not very good as this are you?

Ah. I forgot about that. So that is three clean breaks then by the England team.


The discussion wasn't about who made clean breaks though. I'm not on here for a dick measuring contest. It was about Jon Wilkin and what he brings to the England team. So yes, I AM 'good at this' but I can't account for people moving the goal posts.

I'm not Wilkins biggest fan by any means, but I think he had a very good season for Saints and must have been close to being their player of the season. The fact that Gareth Hock had his brain fart and Lockers was unavailable made him an automatic England choice IMO.

Getting back on track, I still don't like the idea of starting with a loose forward at stand off, and only one prop on the bench.

I was waiting for a bite off a Saints fan, I don't think you have got my point.

Wilkin is a decent SL player, he might tackle his heart out but so did Malcolm Alker. You say he has a good passing game and his kicking might get a bit wayward, that proves my point about him ar5ing around thinking he's Wally lewis and he's a 'cherry on the cake' type of player, yes very good in a team on top but he won't be driving the ball out of his own 20 and making yards as he also lacks size too.

Against Aus we need players like Ellis and Westwood playing second row like their lives depend on it, Wilkin is a decent player in SL but not International IMO, it's not Wigan bias as I wouldn't of had Joel Tomkins in before him after this last season where he has been sulking all season, maybe would have had Hock before him if he was a bit fitter.

It's not anti Saints either as I think Roby and Graham always step up to International level.

agreed

based on his season, I think Wilkin deserves his spot in the 17, i've been very impressed with him

And that comment proves my point about you not knowing what Wilkin contributes to a team. What a totally stupid thing to say.

Name one international game where he has a big difference (apart from the one clean break against the exiles).

I'm not saying he's crap, he does well in SL but he has never done anything at International level despite numerous chances.

IMO he isn't physical enough, he doesn't punch holes in defences nor does he hit hard enough in defence mainly due to his size.

Wilkin adds alot. His defence can be very intellegent to shut key players down, aswell as hard working.
He can also show nice lines of attack and good support as well as the talked about ball handling.

However, England are really up against it and I'm all for "Big is Beautiful" in test teams.
I'd have Carvell on the bench instead of Wilkin. I also think for test rugby Wilkin is a long way behind O'Loughlin, whereas at club level he gives him a run for his money. If Burgess was available he'd obviously be in there as well.

Wilkin will not discrace himself against anyone, but he wouldn't be my preference in these situations.

Really Rogues? Gaz Hock for England? I'm not sure if you'd have many people, even from this board, agreeing with you on that one.

On current form I wouldn't have Hock in, needs to be a bit more pro active in defence. Wilkin won't disgrace himself by any means and with him in the team we will compete but we won't win, if I were to play him it would be in a spoiling role at 13 or off the bench with his prime goal of shutting Lockyer, Marshall and Thurston down and niggling them all game, but for that we would need a good organising 7 which we haven't that's why I would play Sinfield so we can accomodate Chase and Widdop who both aren't organisers.

In fairness, Sinfield has played stand off pretty much all season (albeit with 13 on his back) and was the driving force behind Leeds winning the GF.

As far as one prop on the bench goes, McNamara mentioned last night at the 4 Nations Fans forum that he's comfortable with that given that he's got 3 props in the 17 whose time on the field is good in comparison to others - Graham, Peacock and, possibly to a lesser extent, Morley.

When Ben Westwood is added to the mix I think there's a decent argument to say that we've enough cover there.

Biggest problem i have with Sinfield at 6, is he does not posses that creative flair or to use the buzzword "that X-Fcator"

I do however think widdop would be a revelation playing of the back of our pack which is undoubtedly our biggest strength

I do hope i am proved wrong of course !

Whilst I agree, he does tick so many of the basic half back options that other players (such as Chase) don't, such as a great long kicking game. That he's a must for me. I'd rather have a Goulding or a Martyn, but we don't have that luxury.
People get carried away that he's really a loose forward, but even when he's named there for leeds, he basically played 1st receiver and used Burrow and McGuire as left and right pivot. Having Webb in as well, who also plays that 2nd receiver has meant that, rather than have too many cooks spoiling the broth, Burrow has been switched to impact hooker.

I'd go Sinfield and Widdop for the halves. Chase on the bench.

Widdop has to play 6 IMO, why bring him in if your not thinking of playing him. Against the French Sam, created 2 tries and saved a try. Fook all wrong with him when they took him off and he looked p...ed off to me, to bring Widdop on. Same old story for me, loose forward playing for GB @ 6. Now when we have a lad who has played at 6 for one of the best teams in the NRL all season, so we have him on the bench and take off the best FB in SL to accommodate him, We need all our best 13 players on the field, play Sinfield at 13, he can still organise.

Also Rob Burrows was close to MOM at Wembley, was MOM in the GF, changed the game when he came on at Warrington in play off, if anybody's in form, its him. Has he retired ?