No, they don’t. They do some very very very good things, but they also aren’t hitting the levels they are capable of in some other areas. Leeds are an even better example of what I am talking about. Some people in the game talk about the likes of Leeds as if they ‘have made it’. As if that is it for them, that we shouldn’t actually sit back, look at it again and say, ‘You know what, Leeds are a big club, with a big support base and high visibility, 14-15K averages, whilst massively better than most, and huge compared to some, isn’t Leeds reaching its potential. There is no reason why, if Leeds really put their minds to it that by say 2015, Leeds could have 20k averages. But we just accept 14-15k attendances because for a sport that is a bit rubbish, that figure isn’t too rubbish.

I don’t see what we gain by pretending that the failings some clubs have don’t exist, we should not only recognise our failings, but also our successes and especially our potential. The game shouldn’t be afraid to challenge itself, it shouldn’t be afraid to say it isn’t where it could be, and it shouldn’t be shy about saying what it could be. We are currently the 5th biggest league in Britain after the premier league, the championship, the Aviva premiership and the SPL but there is no reason that by say 2025, Super League can’t be the 2nd biggest sports league in the country. That should be our aim, and if everyone can get to the level of the biggest SL clubs now we would be very close to it, and where we are failing in that aim, we should recognise it, accept it, and address it.

Isn't that exactly what I said several posts ago? We were in a mess - now we're in less of a mess, but there's a long way still to go. The direction of travel looks positive right now and having picked up on some of the good stuff that was achieved by the previous regime, Mr Glover could well find himself presiding over the most significant event in the history of WTW. I haven't seen a single WTW fan suggest that the work is done, that the tin roof has solved all our problems or made BV in the San Siro of West Yorkshire - on the contrary, the general attitude is one of cautious optimism.

You accuse the rest of the RL world of being satisfied by mediocrity, yet you go to great lengths to downplay the achievements of a club that is working hard to break out of decades of mediocrity; I'm not sure who told you that the tin roof, increased attendance, 2 city centre shops and refurbished hospitality facilities were 'mission accomplished,' but it wasn't a WTW supporter - your argument is based on a fallacy.

i didnt disagree that wakefield have improved but there is still a long way to go. And im not trying to downplay wakefields acheivements just simply arguibg that they are accepted for what they are. But you seem to be doing exactly what im talking about, its almost like a mass self-esteem issue where Wakefields fairly modest acheivements should be celebrated or make Wakefield immune to criticism because we have seen them go from absolute basket case to just a little bit of a basket case because everything is a littl bit rubbish in rl.

That bears no resemblance to what's happening at the club or amongst the supporters.

I say again - I haven't seen or heard a single WTW supporter or member of staff suggest that their work here is done; quite the opposite - most fans have welcomed the small improvements that have been made, but are clear that the real hard work is still to come. Mr Glover himself has stated at several events that he has a ten year plan for WTW - for the sake of context, year one has just passed. Out of interest, where have you picked up the feeling that the club is accepted for what it is or should be immune to criticism?

I realise it rather goes against the spirit of the VT, but perhaps you should avoid pontificating on subjects of which you only have a sketchy, outsiders knowledge?

Whatever you decide to do, I'd appreciate if you refrain from the cod pyschology; it's rather insulting and cheapens the discussion.

I don't think a 30% increase in attendances can be considered "mediocre" in fact considering where Wakey finished in 2011 and the majority of home performances then I'm amazed we manage to average over 8k a game, I think if the club was not making massive strides in other areas the fans would have clearly voted with their feet and there would never have been an "Esso Garage tin Roof"
Mr Smokey, come along to Belle view next season and get some informed knowledge of the situation then maybe you wouldn't get accused of spouting such ill informed bilge

I think there is a bit of a straw man here. Whether deliberate or not, whether its you or me, there seems to a change in what im trying to put across to what you are reading. Im not saying that the club have said their work is done. What I am saying is that there is an attitude, not from everyone, not specifically to wakefield, not from WTW as a club, but a sizeable group of people that sees a club like Wakefield and limits it. They see it as a 'small club' and judge it by 'small club' benchmarks. Its the one that says Wakefield (and im just using them as an example, as i have said numerous times this is throughout the game) had a great season last year, when in fact they were mid-table during the regular season, and fairly easily knocked out of the play-offs. That happens at leeds, Sts, Wire et al and the coach loses his job and serious questions are asked about the structures at the club and fans are kicking off.
Its one which says 7k is a good attendance and an 'achievement' it isnt it is poor, its better but still poor.
Its the one that sees putting a couple of hundred grands worth of steel on a stand and pretends thats an achievement when it doesnt even address what an awful facility Belle Vue is.

As i say, it isnt specific to Wakefield, it applies to almost all clubs from the woe is me of the Wigan fans this off-season, to every club that is just aiming for a play-off place, we saw it under P+R where clubs aimed for survival, and fans were happy with that. Its the kind of thinking that says 6'5k crowds are 'good for cas' f@@k off, no they arent, they arent good for anybody, not Cas, not London, no-one!

Look at this thread and see what people are actually defending, we have Wakefield fans getting upset because 9 months ago i described the roof put on a stand as a petrol forecourt roof, we have Cas fans defending a playing record over SL which has yielded 2 relegations, 3 play-offs, 0 finals and never a sniff of a trophy and then look at the can London be the biggest club thread and we can see people saying things like [iWhy can people not accept the fact we are a regional sport, embrace the fact.[/i or on the what if expansion works thread where we have people saying things like [iI think it would be good if every club in England, followed by Wales and then France won the Euro Lottery as sole winner. This would help RL expand, also finding the end of the rainbow and each CEO becoming proficient in the art of alchemy[/i or [iIf expansion works, it will be played in a parallel universe.[/i there is a section of our support base that just really doesnt believe in the game at all, so it pretends that fairly mediocre things like Wakefield putting a roof on a stand is a great achievement, or Cas getting 6;5k averages or HKR only having 9 players from overseas this year or these clubs qualifying for the playoffs are things the game should celebrate and that we should be proud of these clubs and celebrate and cherish these clubs, then on the other hand arguing these clubs arent going to be better, they arent going to be flagship clubs, they arent going to challenge the big clubs and the game isnt ever going to spread it isnt ever going to get better. Its a depressing pessimism that infects the game, there is almost a battle to see who can be the most 'realistic' except people seem to have forgotten to be realistic and have just become negative. There are numerous people who are predicting the demise of the game, there are people seriously suggesting we cut the SC to £1m and give up on keeping our best players because clubs like Wakefield will never be able to afford to be competitive. That is what I am arguing against, this pervasive pessimism that somehow is mixed with excuses and false praise for mediocre improvements.

I understand what you don't like Smokey but I fail to see what you do think is good.
You say Wakefield attendances are still poor but what exactly do you see as ok?

You seem to write intelligently but at the same time just seem to be going out of your way to criticise and wind everybody up.

Say clearly what you see as good with no backhanded complements or digs and let us understand why you have such an interest in these 'poor' clubs.

I think you'll find that there is a direct correlation between the changes to how people are perceiving your argument, and the frequency with which your argument changes.



Does context not figure in your world? The generally accepted view seems to be that relative to where they were and in the context of where they started from (20 new players?) Wakefield had a good season, in relative terms; from being widely predicted to win the wooden spoon, they ended the season with a 7 game winning streak, against decent opposition, and finished in the 8, losing out to the world and SL champions.



Again, context; what's being praised as an achievement is the [iincrease[/i in attendances, and rightly so; the upward trend needs to continue, but change is a process, not an event.



Again, a fallacious argument; BV is seen by most WTW supporters now as a temporary facility - Mr Glover has prudently made some improvements to satisfy the RFL, at significant cost to himself. I don't see anyone portraying that as anything other than what it was - indeed, many supporters have said that the money was wasted and that he should have told the RFL to go whistle.



I would agree that a race for mediocrity isn't helpful; I am however able to acknowledge when a club makes incremental progress towards longer term improvements; that's generally how things are done in the real world and you may be surprised to learn that not everyone can win SL every year or build a brand new stadium in the off-season.



This we agree on, with the supercilious bilge that you post being an excellent example of the attitude of some 'supporters' of RL that hold the game back. If every club abandoned the realism that you find so offensive, the game would collapse in on itself in no time.

As I said, I think challenging the championship should be our aim so 17k+ would be ‘good’

10k+ should be the minimum acceptable. It is the minimum level at which the game thinks it can operate.
Because there are some clubs who aren’t too far away from where the league needs to be, there are other who aren’t anywhere near. It’s the ones who aren’t near who are the problem for the league, they need to improve. It affects the whole game.

No, in relative terms Wakefield had a poor season, relative to half the league Wakefield had a poor year. What you are doing now is what I am talking about, it is small time thinking and its what makes small time clubs.

Wakefield lost more games than they won, they finished in the bottom half of the league and were comfortably knocked out of the play-offs, if Wakefield arent better than seeing that as a good season they shouldnt be in SL. (for the record i think they are better than that)

But the increase is nigh on irrelevant when its barely a third of the minimum of what you need. London could go up by 30%, it would take them to between 3-4k averages and would total about 700 people, Yeah its good they are improving but that isn’t something to celebrate, Whilst 30%, in real terms it’s a fairly small number and they are still miles away from where they need to be, and the figures are still bad.

You cant on one hand argue that Wakefield shouldn’t bother with these improvements, and blame the RFL for ‘wasting’ all that money on improving them, then expect praise for a 30% improvement in what is a pretty poor attendance figure. One of the major reasons Wakefields attendance is so poor is the stadium and it’s again, small time thinking to think Wakefield don’t have to improve their attendances, don’t have to improve their facility because possibly, in 3 years a Stadium which hasn’t yet had a brick laid, may be built.

They don’t have to do it in one year, we are 16 years in to fully pro Rugby League, to pretend that I am demanding all clubs win SL every year and build a new stadium in the off-season is blatant nonsense, We have had 16 years to win something, get to a final, improve their stadiums, and still some fans are acting as if it is too much to ask, in too short a time for them to have made the necessary adjustment to fully pro RL, and they want to pretend that is realism and not small-time thinking.
How about some actual realism, some facts.

More people watch our game now than ever before, more people attend games in this era than ever before, there is more money in the game than ever before, the last 10 years have seen a resurge in the international game which was nigh on dead 20 years ago. We have more youngsters playing the game, we have more games televised to a higher production level, than ever before, we are a nationally televised sport, we are the 5th biggest sporting league in Great Britain (by attendance) we are an outstanding sport, the greatest game, we have so much to be proud of bar a fan base that would rather criticise the game, look for the negatives, would rather spin good news to bad and that argues in favour of accepting mediocrity than banging the drum for how good the sport is and how high its potential is.

Smokey, whilst you make many valid points regarding Wakefield’s “Tinpot” existence, your berating of the club appears biased to me.

Whilst you have, on many occasions, explained the reasons as to why you have “issues” with the club, I have never seen a similar stance regarding the Bradford debacle.

Wakefield had to claw their way back into SL and faced year after year of relegation battles, whereas Bradford had it all, the large crowds & seemingly endless success, but not once have I seen you refer to their recent leadership as “Tinpot”

This thread isnt about Bradford, its about Wakefield and Cas. If it were i would have been critical of them, If you look back you would see I was very critical of them. Chris Caisley did some very good things, but when the time came to stand up and sort the issues, he wasn’t there, Peter Hood was almost the very embodiment of what I am talking about, a man who looked for excuses and not for solutions, blamed big bad meanies for their problems and whose only idea in terms of marketing was to devalue the tickets then get the begging bucket out. As I said, this applies throughout the game.

Well Smokey to give tou credit you do acknowledge the potential of Wakefield and do not regard us as small club which many on the VT wrongly do.
Also I do agree that negativity is the mantra of many RL fans.
That I cannot understand ,we should be shouting from the rooftops the positive aspects of our great game.
I have for over 50 years and indeed still do over here in France.

Not sure what the top attendances were this year but who has an average above 17k?
I'm less bothered about being tin pot if the whole league is tin pot. I agree we all need to improve but I think you are trying jump things along a little to quickly.

If 10k is minimum it'll be a small league.
Minimum in terms of target? Absolutely.

No-one, but Leeds and Wigan have broken that figure before, and arent miles away now. Its not a figure which is impossible, we have proven that.
Why? Wakefield could easily be a flagship club, why be happy being tinpot because a few others are?

would it? Leeds, Saints, Wigan, Wire, Hull, Bradford are all above that figure, Les Catalans are only a little under that , thats half the league already there.

No I'm not - I'm just being realistic; in your obtuse world, every team in SL had a poor season relative to the teams that finished above them. In the real world, Wakefield had a decent season relative to their previous season, which is a more satisfactory benchmark. I don't think we're at the point yet of using Wigan or Warrington as our statistical neighbour; that will come later.



Given that you've already accepted that these things can't be fixed overnight, that's a nonsense argument; attendances have improved quite significantly and they look set to continue to do so. Would you advocate that unless we're able to get 17k next season, we should just give up?



I'm not arguing that; regardless of what some supporters said at the time, Mr Glover invested the money the RFL told him to, to satisfy the requirements of his temporary licence and buy some time so that NM could be moved on.



Again, here we can agree; all clubs have had long enough to sort themselves out and in an ideal world, would have done; in WTW's case though, in the absence of a time machine, Mr Glover can't do anything about the preceeding 16 years - he appears to be doing his best to change things for the future though, not least the poor crowds and unsuitable facility. I don't advocate ignoring the past, but I don't see much value in banging on about who should have done what and when.



Another point of agreement and all good stuff - with respect to the negative fan base though, I'd suggest that your insistence on pointing to the failures of the previous regime at WTW as a counterpoint to the (relative, modest) successes of the current one, put you firmly in that camp, at least where our club is concerned.

No you aren’t being ‘realistic’ you are accepting mediocrity. Wakefield could have won the play-offs, they could have won the challenge cup, they could have finished higher in the table, they could have got to a final it wasn’t impossible for them to do so, it was difficult I accept, but it wasn’t close to impossible.
The only reason it is looked on as being ‘unrealistic’ for a club like Wakefield to do this is because you look at them as a small club and dont expect things from small clubs. So mediocrity is celebrated until it mediocrity becomes de facto success.
To give another example, you, along with other Wakefield fans have bemoaned a perceived difference in treatment between Wakefield and Bradford in their hours of need. You, along with other Wakefield fans have complained that Wakefield’s survival wasn’t perceived as important as Bradfords, if you want to be treated as having the same importance as Bradford then you should expect to be judged on the same standards as Bradford. Nobody pretends Bradford would class Wakefields season last year, as a ‘good season’.

I haven’t advocated them giving up. Just that they accept it is only the first small step, and not ‘an achievement’ or ‘Success’
And you have stated it was a waste of money.

I haven’t blamed Mr Glover, as I said I think he has done a ‘good job’ so far. I just don’t think we should be resetting the clock every time there is a takeover of a club. Of course there is a bedding in period but the clock is always ticking. And im not banging on about who should have done what and when. Im saying something which is largely the opposite. That what has gone before isn’t really an excuse for us to have lower expectations of clubs, we should expect and demand more from them.

Im not being negative about Wakefield, i am being positive about them. I think a 30% increase is 'good' i think 7-8k averages arent. I accept, and hope that this is the start of the growth Wakefield can have, i accept it may not be and they may not reach that level. We should praise them for their improvements, we shouldnt ignore the fact that there are still failings.

The only person not doing that is you.



I haven't seen any evidence of anyone doing that; can you provide examples?

What a completely bizarre last few pages, talk about arguing for the sake of it especially when no fan or employee at the club doesn't think there's a hell of a lot more to do for us to realise it's full potential, in reality we're only 2 years into the journey of something that will more than likely take 5 or 6 years or more.

Ateotd no one at Wakefield has ever said this is as far as the club can go, no one has said we're happy with 8k attendances and shouldn't continue to improve, no one has ever said we are happy to just squeeze into the playoffs and that's as good as it gets for us, no one as ever said we shouldn't continue to improve our junior program, no one has never said we shouldn't improve our revenue streams. The owner and supporters all know if we carrying on doing the right things, on and off the pitch as well as get Newmarket up and running we'll realise it's massive potential.

But there's nothing wrong at all in giving praise for improvements that have been made at the club since Glover took over, maybe if you're club had been where ours has you would fully appreciate the works it's taken to get here because it wasn't that long ago it all nearly ended for us.

I do hope Leeds follow up on the initial enquiry with regards taking the "Esso garage stand" over to Headingley if/when Wakey move.

It's to be hoped Smokey hasn't got kids, his assessment of a school report would border on child abuse!

Indeed,

Imagine if the poor blighters took up any kind of athletics

"So you think you can celebrate a little because you've just beaten your personal best running the 100m in 10.5 seconds! Ridiculous!! Other people can run it in under 10 seconds! You are a tinpot child!"

Just out of interest why does Andrew Glover insist that everyone call him Mr Glover ?

He doesn't, I think someone pulling your change. Though I believe he prefers Andrew over Andy.