And pays its business rates to Bradford...

Business is business.

I am sure getting 7500 season ticket purchases will be a difficult job after the events of the last few years, but it is the time when the fans need to step up and get behind the rebuilding of the team and club if they want to see competitive SL in Bradford again.
We have a new owner who pulled the club back from the edge of the abyss, we maintained our place in the SL, we seem to have managed to keep some of our rising young players with the exception of "Bondi" Burgess ( not that I blame him for wanting a bit of sun) - things which were no means certain for much of the summer. The new management also seem to be both more professional with the way they have gone about their work and seem to be 100% more open and engaging with the fans- so we need to get behind them and the team in numbers if we are going to see more progress.

It seemed to me that 7500 was roughly the number of home fans actually turning up in the second half of the season. And they had prepaid their entrance money. I'd be very surprised if full priced season ticket sales topped 5,000

Its more a case of who will have the expertise to assist FC in indentifying players, negotiating and re-negotiating with agents and juggling with the playing staff salary budget? Who will identify targets that are not that well known such as a Manuakafoa?

I read John Monie's autobiography a bit back and was surprised how much credit he gave Maurice Lindsay for taking all of those issues away from him and just dealing with them himself. He actually described Lindsay as the best judge of a RL player that he'd ever met. He also said that Lindsay devoted a huge amount of time to it. At the moment I cant see where that sort of expertise lies within the Bulls structure. And I dont think that FC should be expected to do it.

Add it to Duffys duties, he seems to do everything else !

Realistically if the last season is a yardstick, the figure of 7500 pre sold season tickets is achievable. It could even be the lower end of the scale...the average home gate for 2012 was 12,763 for league games , even excluding the magic weekend joint crowd with Leeds.

In percentage terms that would only be 58% of that average. With the exception of Leeds not many teams would bring 42% (5360) of the home average crowd would they! So I would think our core support is nearer 10,000 than 7500 that was suggested by one of the posters.

But it all depends on how well the pre sell is marketed in the next couple of months, before anyone can say for definate how well the Club will re invent itself for 2013..my feeling are watch this space..it's gonna be a revelation.

I suspect you are no Marketeer Isaac?
The three most important aspects when Marketing anything are very apparent when talking to the new CREW at Odsal. In other words they understand the DPEs of the situation ie the Desireable-Probable-Essential.

I cannot speculate what these figures might actually be, excepting that if you see one of my posts, I can put a very good case for 7500 being the probable figure. You are a Bulls supporter who should be banging the drum for the club. Not dumbing us down all the time.Have faith my friend...I have, as others in my circle have, like me they have been around the club for many years, and know what can be done at this great stadium.

Jonte don't waste your time, some posters on here aren't happy unless they've got something to moan about, I bet Geoff Lee (Glee) would be worried if some those with overactive imaginations decide to write books, he would have some competition!

I don't think its moaning, just genuine concern and caution after everything that's happened this season. If the expectations for season ticket sales prove to be over optimistic by say 2,000, that's a shortfall in income of £300-400K. Does the new owner have the resources to plug that gap, on top of what appears to be a very severe cut in Sky money? I honestly don't know, but I don't think its moaning to ask the question.

^^^^^

Did you not go to the Fans Forum? Do what Adey has already suggested to another pessimist go and ask OK you wll get anwsers to your concerns!

I think I would get OK's opinion that he will sell 7,500 full priced season tickets. My opinion is that he will not. I might be wrong, he might be right. But he will not be able to answer that question for a few months.

I've no doubt that OK will do a very good job on the marketing side and that he has many great ideas. But ultimately success for the Bulls will be driven by success on the field, in much the same way that Bullmainia in 1996 was driven by our CC Final appearance. Marketing alone will not save the Bulls. And the fact is that the new owner has zero experience in running a professional sports club.

I'm certainly more optimistic now than I was a few months ago, really hope that OK will transform the club. But I still think we're only half way out of the mire and will retain a degree of pessimism for the time being.

I appreciate you no longer reside in the UK, but you do remember the typical Bradfordian, don't you??

very downbeat and negative, woe is me etc....

it hasn't changed, still plenty of knockers about who would rather whinge/moan/put a dampener on everything than do or say soemthing positive!

Optimism may well sell merchandise & tickets in the build up to the new season. But unless that is quickly reflected in performances on the field that fans' optimism will quickly be dispelled as we have seen numerous times in boom & bust sports teams. IMO Cibaman's concerns are genuine & relevant, especially an apparent lack of RL nous & expertise at senior management level. A Gary Hetherington/Maurice Lyndsey/Chris Caisely type figure, on a quarter of the salary is required. Kath H is out of work?

You would only loose £400k if the 2000 don't turn up at all for the whole season. If they come to 50% of the games and pay £20 on the gate you will get more than £300k through the turnstile.

Sure it's good to have the cashflow from season ticket sales in the bank - but in broader terms the challenge is to get bigger average attendance not whether they buy season tickets or pay on the gate.

Don't forget to deduct the VAT from any calculations the wannabe accountants

perform on here...

Also remember that some costs are variable in line with revenue (like turnstile and ground staff) so £1 loss of gate revenue does not mean £1 loss of profit, but rather less.

Offsetting that, fewer bodies means lower ancillary income, meaning the opposite.

Heath mentioned in passing that Geoff Evans had moved on, this might be common knowledge - if so it had slipped by me - but this may also have as big an effect on the team next year as Cummins becoming head coach. Whether that change of conditioner is for the good or not will remain to be seen.

I think there is more than a little truth in the idea of results being a big driver, but I suspect there is a new optimism surrounding the club right now which could prove to be even bigger.

One thing I desperately hope we've seen the end of, is this attitude of, "we're the big Bradford Bulls and we're above signing [ithis[/i player, or losing to [ithis[/i team, [ishould[/i be playing better, etc", a belief expressed on here many, many times. If we (a few of us) have lost this outdated, and never very nice, superiority complex, then the fans will hopefully be a little more forgiving than has been the case in recent years and we can ALL get behind the guys wearing the shirt. Ultimately, in this situation we really are 'all in it together', and we either sink or swim and I'd rather swim, even if the water gets a bit choppy.

And there are some bloody great sharks and other nasties circling round us too, in that water. And our best chance against those wakners is to stick pretty closely together. Any outliers will get picked off first.

You sound like a cost accountant



But in reality these costs are not fully variable as after a Huddersfield match when only a dozen away fans turned up you cannot say to the gatemen "sorry we didn't need you".

Indeed. Costs like that are semi-variables, and the cost driver for only part of the cost is attendance. There is a base number of staff required regardless, and the club (or the contractor) then assesses how many additional bodies are needed based on the club's estimate for the forthcoming gate. And for Huddersfield, remember you just need a man to keep an eye on the dog, and for HKR you need at least 50,000 turnstile keepers and stewards...

And I'm an everything-accountant (and a lot of other things), although yes I do find management reporting and costing far more interesting, and more beneficial to the business that annual financial reporting - which I have to do, but still detest with a passion because its a pile of poo.

Good piece on the Fans Forum on the T&A site www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... ulls_fans/

Good piece on the Fans Forum on the T&A site www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... ulls_fans/

One of the problems with the obsession tickets, both season and advance is that the effect it has had on the walk up crowd. This isn't just a Bulls problem but is more pronounced if your season ticket is discounted. People are reluctant to pay £20 for what the person stood next to them has paid £10 or less. According to an article I read about champagne

they over produced, discounted to sell the over production. When the price went back up sales collapsed as even the people who had previously paid full price stopped buying it.

Similarly with discount on away game tickets bought in advance. it's a significant disincentive to simply turn up as to all intents and purposes you have incurred a levy, rather than the pre-payer receiving a discount.

Whilst we might sell less season tickets I'd hope the walk up crowd returns in numbers.

I'll stay firmly on the fence thank you very much, but in general people are a little too quick to label others as 'negative' if they have the opinion that 7,500 season ticket holders is a bit of an ask.

You may disagree but it's hardly bristling with negativity is it? There is broad middle-ground between happy-clappy and woe-is-me.