Brown hasn't done a fine job at all, what are you watching? He has done a fairly average job when you consider the league position. Granted he wasn't dealt a great hand with us having such deficiencies in our squad, but there are no signs the attacking structures that would see us competing in trophies next season avec Walsh are in place or even building towards that. Whilst we haven't had a scrum half this season the moves and set plays shouldn't change much, just the quality of the execution. Walsh isn't going to do all that on his own and it's unfair to expect him to.

Hohaia went to 9 as Roby went off and ran fron straight from dummy half whereas Roby runs wide. Time after time he was tackled by Leeds players who were not square at marker but Bentham seemed determined not to give a pen to Saints. Saints first pen was on 50 mins. Leeds don't need that lift up.
Whether Hohaia ran straight on instinct or instruction from Cunningham I don't know but KC made a career on running into not square markers and gaining a pen.
Just makes me wonder who is running the plays as both coaches are former 9s.
Great move for the first Manu try but that seemed the only move all night.

We haven't had a 7, or a 6, or a decent 9 for a large part of the year. We've also missed our first choice 1 for a decent amount of time.

The entire spine of the team has been in disarray for the entire year and the pack has been filled with youth until the very back end of the season, it's been a bit more than missing a 7.

You really are a plonker aren't you. He has dealt with most of what has been wrong with the playing staff with his signings for next year. We have finished the season in a far better position than anyone predicted after 5 games, AND WE HAVE CLADDING!!!!!!!!!!!

Saddened's just upset because NB wouldn't back his campaign for armrests on his chair or his "in-seat bovril dispenser"

I would agree with you if we look at the first 6 weeks of the season, but we have been in disarray for 2/3 of the season and not all down to Nathan Brown. The club has had to overcome lots of obstacles , I think you need to judge next season on the last 6 weeks of this season.
We have potentially an exciting back line and a powerful pack for next season. Our pivotal positions of 1, 6, 7 9 and 13 look as though its now been established for next season, Nathan Brown will work on game plans and set plays now he has got something to work with.

Take 6, 7 and 9 out of Huddersfield, Warrington, Wigan, Leeds for 2/3 of the season and we would have been a lot more competitive.

What have YOU been watching?

This season? Some of the worst rugby I've ever seen Saints come up with. We've had a couple of months of decent performances recently, but what went before that was pretty shocking.

Laughable that you can criticise NB saddened. I'm convinced its just to live up to youre user name as some find it amusing. Unfortunately some of youre comments make you look a bit of a pillock or you don't watch many of the games at all. Fundamental to any side are the pivots. The key positions 1,6,7 & 9. Lomax & Roby have missed huge chunks this season & its took Brown a while to find a half back combination but more so, the likes of Wilkin to develop & understand his role in an alien position. Wigan cant win a game without Tomkins, so I'm not sure what you expect without any key players.
Considering the kids weve bloodied, the squad he's building & the form in the last 3 months as players returned I'd say he's done a great job. Nobody realistically expected us to win anything this year, it was always a re-building process & we look a lot stronger again next season. The Simmons regime & signings were a huge set back for us but we look like getting back on track. It was of no surprise the form of the likes of Manu got better back end of the year as we developed more understanding & continuity in the halves. We miss a leader & organiser & Walsh provides that next year. The pack looks good, Roby & Walsh will thrive behind that & the likes of Turner & Manu will hurt teams with earlier quality ball out wide. One final thing that was beyond reproach was the work ethic & team spirit that squad has developed, epitomised at Leeds. A lot to be positive about.

To be fair to Saddened!, though, we have been unacceptably poor at times this season, injuries or not. However, Brown does seen to have turned things around. Overall I think he's had a pretty ropey season, but his recruitment has demonstrated his awareness of our weak spots and the improvement towards the end of the year has shown that better times are ahead.

One thing we'll always have to live with while Brown is coach is eccentric selection decisions. Sometimes they will work and sometimes they will backfire. Hopefully he will recognise that our best performances came when the side was settled. Having said that, I like the fact that he's not afraid to move people like Wellens out of their established positions. I suppose it's about striking a balance, but I suspect he'll carry on getting it wrong from time to time.

I agree.

I don't think it's any coincidence that we started to perform better once Brown had stopped his bloody tinkering. I really hope he doesn't start up that again with the new season or else we are probably in for a repeat performance.

I don't think it's any coincidence that Brown stopped tinkering when he got some bodies back fit . . . .

He still had his odd moments at the back end of the year, though. That starting pack against Warrington, for example. I think it's just a quirk that we'll have to get used to with Brown. Sometimes it'll reveal something interesting about a player, sometimes it'll cost us points.

I think it's less about tinkering.

Tinkering suggests no plan at all, just switching for the sake of it.

Personally I think there was a plan with the changes for the Wire game, however not all plans are perfect and on that occasion it did not work out, mainly due to players not retaining the ball.

Better ball retention would have lead to that opening 20 minutes being a bit of a slog athone, but I think NB would have been looking to be down by say 6 before bring on our strike players to try and bust open the Warrington defense. As it was the 2nd half of the game plan worked, it was the poor ball retention that gave up too much possession and field position.

Like I say not tinkering, but having more than one plan A, to be used against all teams.

Spot on. A lot of posters on here don't like/get Browns way of thinking and choose to mock it instead of understand it. Brown has given the full squad a run in a number of different positions and in doing so has found the best combinations and identified holes in the squad that our recruiting for next year will fill. Reading the recent article on the Saints website Brown talks about how the team has changed. The back three starting the season as Wellens/Gardner/Meli and ending as Lomax/Makinson/Swift has been an amazing improvement in terms of speed, skill and age, but it has only come about from trial and error. In the end you have to break a few eggs to make an omelette.

We need to have a long term vision if we are going to improve as a club and challenge for trophies. As fans we need to look at the bigger picture and not just react to the last result regardless if it is good or bad. Brown still has work to do and his legacy at the club will depend on where the club is at the end of his 4 years. Until then I am happy to let him get on with it.

well that was a failure of a season from st helens all said and done. 5th placed finish, out of the playoffs early and out of the cup early.

and you thought nathan brown was the messiah! fooled me too, thought you would win something this year.

With the long term injuries we have had to key players this season, plus a lot of work to undo what Mick Potter started and Royce continued, I think to finish 5th on the back of a "poor season" isnt that bad really.

The way we have improved from the back end of June to how we finished last week has been a huge turnaround, and think NB and the coaching staff need to be recognised for this, I would challenge Huddersfield to have finished any higher if missing Brough & Lunt alone for the majority of the season let alone another 8-10 of their first choice playing squad on top of that.

Our recruitment for next year looks good (an ACTUAL scrum half!! along with some big size added to the pack for a change) and I am confident that Brown is the right man for the job and expect us to win something next season. If we fail to win anything next year, I will be more critical of him but for the adversities we have had this season I think he has done a decent job this year all in all.

nathan brown does not have a plan B ! one his his downfalls when at the giants

Not sure the Giants fans ever got used to it and he did it for all the time he was there so the suggestion that he was somehow finding out who played where in our team doesn't wash with me. It's what he does and it undermines us. When he stopped doing it, after the Chairman made his second big speech to all and sundry, we started to improve. He did it again against Wire and hey-ho we crumbled again.

True, you never got to within 80 minutes of OT under brown . . . . Hang on a minute!

But that's untrue Brown has shown this season he has plans A to Z, he will try a different game plan near enough every week.

What additional work has Brown to do exactly?

What he needs to do next season is actually coach the team. He will have all the necessary ingredients to have a good team next season, one which will be competitive.

I'm yet to be convinced that he is a good coach but I'm prepared to give him next season. If he messes us up again as he has done on many occasions this season, irrespective of injuries, then I won't want him around for the final year of his contract (he signed for three years by the way, not four).

He needs to continue the re-build. Something that's been ongoing through the season.

Some of the performances have been woeful this season, I don't think anyone would dispute that, but you have got to see the bigger picture. The squad he has inherited has been extremely imbalanced. If you expected glorious RL all season with it, then you need a reality check.

The guy has had no HBs in the team (Gaskell not being good enough, Lomax pushed to his best position), virtually no prop forwards (Perry missing etc) with all the injuries etc....yet he has guided us to a 5th placed finish (realistically the place this squad deserved to finish) with a defeat on friday by a single point vs the current champions in the play-offs.



What does this even mean?

Saying he only has a plan A or can't coach shows a massive lack of aweness of what is going on, on the field of play.

My only issue this year was the Gaskell position, although I'm not entirely sure who called the shots on that one.

Gaskell may not have been the future at Saints, he may have been a lazy so and so, he may have been a nightmare. But he was the last half standing and we shipped him out.

To me that was cutting our nose to spite our face. Had GOB come in, or another half then fair enough, but we brought in Howarth. Who apart from 10 -20 minutes in one or 2 games was for me behind Lance as a 9.

I will never fathom that, as a club we should have been able to let Gaskell play out the season next to Wilkin. It would have balanced us better for most of 2013, when GOB came in, sure drop Gaskell to the reserves.

I can only think the other players or a higher power could not stand playing along side him as there seemed no rational reason for getting rid of your only half remaining.

That aside. The rest of the moves by Brown have been pretty good.

FB: Lomax
Wing: Makinson
Wing: Swift
Centre: Turner (brough in by Brown)
Centre: Meli & Percival ( Royce can take the credit for Meli at centre, but brown caught on quicker than most coaches at SAints) Percival was a nice touch. Managed him well too.
HB: Wilkin/GOB a very good move
HB: Gaskell (insane move)
LMS: has become the player we thought we had bought under Brown and has never shown this form before
Walmsley: another great spot from Brown
Manu: a great steal from Hull
Hooker: I'm glad we are now spelling Roby, although I would question the need to move the halves around to do it, just have lance on the bench
Laffranchi: has been taken out as a starting prop he gets found out less coming on after TP.
Walsh/Masoe: look like great buys
Beaumount is an unknown but not vital

Then we have a plether of pack players who have SL experience due to our injuries and whilst not ground movers can now be relied on to fill any holes or rotation mid- year.

The last question is 6????

For me that is the only question left. Our style of play is improved for me on last year.

As a mainly away fan, I've not had to suffer the numerous losses at LP. As an away fan, my year I've seen some real progress with the style of play even without any halves, for me it started to come together away at Bradford, but was quickly disrupted the following week with Wheeler getting yet another knock.

I'd be hoping for a final or 2 next year. I'm not going to say win a final as in all sport there is the element of chance.