Give over. It's beneath you or at least it should be.

I would agree with you on that one mate. I wouldn't slate gibbo - i just don't think hes quite good enough.

All in all I think it's safe to say the squads not good enough at present..BUT we all need to stick together us Leeds fans - sing our hearts out for em and we'll be fine. They're not daft at HQ and i'm sure they'll rectify in time... I think a lot of people are hurting from the loss at the weekend on top of the WCC and the loss at Knowsley road, and rightly so.. we're the champs. We don't like losing.. we must always strive to be the best we can.. but lets just get behind the boys and they'll come good.

I agree with 99% of what you say mate but i think this squad is good enough whereas our performance's against saint's(twice) and manly weren't up to scratch overall i still think there's enough quality in this squad to retain the title.
I will support them no matter what and have been through a lot worse following the loiner's/rhino's!!

But that's slating him isn't it?

At 22, he's the finished product. That product isn't good enough. He was never quick enough, never big enough and never explosive enough.

Watkins shows bags of potential but is raw and loose. His time will come but it's not here yet.

Completely agree.

Fair enough bud, we differ there but we all have our opinions on the squad. I think GH agrees we are a tad short - he said in yep a couple of weeks ago not having Eastwood here was a blow...but he'll sort it no doubt.

Couldn't agree more with your last line..we're certainley in no bad position we're just a bit short of saints at the mo...

Completely disagree,before his injury he was an outstanding prospect at acadamy level and didn't look out of place in our 1st team either on the wing or in the centre,he had pace and power despite his size.
He's had a nightmare run with injuries and is far from the finished product.
Finished article at 22????No chance what about player's like kirke,raleigh,carney,and otheer's that have signed from the lower league's who are older??
Like i've said many times mate that's your opinion fine but i disagree 100%

So if the squad's good enough what happened in those three games? At least two were 'target' games. And what gives you confidence (that without new blood) it will all come good in the end? It's already too late in two comps by the way.

Blind faith?

2nd in a two horse comp sums up Leeds' past to a tee.

I wouldn't say he's the finished product at 22..but i know where your coming from.

So because of our Grand Final win, now some fans expect us to win every game, every competition and produce a great performance every game. Sport isn't like that!

We lost to the better team on the day simple as that!!
You can call it blind faith if you want mate it doesn't alter my opinion.
I get faith in the fact knowing that buderus is far from match fit,our pack imo is better than they showed in those match's and both our attack and defence won't be alway's disjointed.

Well we can't both be right.

Gibson was a prospect in the Academy. He was never a stand out performer in 1st grade and I'm afraid at 22 he never will be.

Watkins could be however.

Gibson is the safer pair of hands at the moment but that's about it.

Very true. We can't win em all.. teams like Saints will have there day again as will we. But i can understand frustration when we are losing big games...

We can


You are right in your house and vice versa simple's!!

Losing to the better team is what sport is all about. Now how do you prevent being second best on the day? Perhaps by making the most of opportunities.

If Buderus was far from match fit what was the rationale behind his selection?

Leeds' understrength pack was outplayed in all three games.

Why is the attack and defence disjointed?

Coaching? Personnel? Lack of strategic thinking?



Try telling you can't win them all to St Helens in the Challenge Cup. It appears a concept they could do with introducing to.

Or is it just Leeds and the rest that can't win them all?

How else will he get match fit??


We can and will play better with the squad we have you know that and i know that.
Would a couple of world class signing's for huge wage's and transfer fees of prevented either defeat???
We will never know but there's no shame in losing a big game afterall we aren't entitled to win every match.
There's better performance's in every player selected on saturday and that will come and will be good enough to win the league imo of course.

Buderus wasn't far from match fit, if he wasn't fit he wouldn't have played, you're making criticism out of thin air.

I wouldn't say outplayed.

Because this is the first time we've had the halves, full back, loose and hookers all playing.

Not working as a unit, maybe the occasion mentally taking it out of the players.

They've just had a good record in the Challenge Cup, we've had a good record in Grand Finals winning 3 of the last 5

Over the last 5 years:

2004 Challenge Cup - St Helens
2004 Super League - Leeds
2005 WCC - Leeds
2005 Challenge Cup - Hull
2005 Super League - Bradford
2006 WCC - Bradford
2006 Challenge Cup - St Helens
2006 Grand Final - St Helens
2007: WCC - St Helens
2007: Challenge Cup - St Helens
2007 Super League - Leeds
2008 WCC - Leeds
2008 Challenge Cup - St Helens
2008 Super League - Leeds
2009 WCC - Manly

St Helens 6
Leeds 5
Bradford 2
Hull 1
Manly 1

Saints don't win them all.

You don't know that. A second rate Aussie like George Carmont, James Evans, Steven Bell or David Howell you mean. It wouldn't need to be a current Aussie rep player to be several shades better than what Leeds have available at present.



Why unlucky? Leeds were incredibly fortunate to draw them at Headingley.




Whatever happens on Friday it will prove nothing that matters one jot. Leeds haven't defended their WCC title and are out of the Challenge Cup at the first hurdle, beaten at home.



Why has 2004 and 2006 only got two titles when 2005, 2007 and 2008 got three?

You missed off Saints 2006 Grand Final victory. And if you are going to include the mickey mouse WCC, why not include the league leaders shield. In fact, include actual silverwear won. Go on.

You're just being silly now, if we got any other team in the 4th round we'd be pretty much certainly in the next round, and the last time we beat them (excluding OT) was at their ground. So you're all for buying second rate Aussies instead of developing our game here. It's your opinion mate you're fully entitled to it and this argument has gone far enough now, we're out, we were poor, there's nothing we can do about it now, there's still the biggest prize avaliable and IMO if we finish top and win it, then it will have been a very sucsessful season. Saints had a blip at the start last year, losing half of their first 10 games, losing 4 in 5 as a matter of fact there's a long way to go and this certainly isn't the end of our season as some people on this board are acting it out to be.

2006 was a mistake, 2004 because it's the last 5 years, so I meant last 5 WCC, CC and SL

Thank you.



Where have I said that? I'm all for developing the Leeds squad from wherever that may be. If there's an Academy player ready to make the step up then that is what Leeds should do. Apart from the ageing Senior, Smith/Gibson/Watkins is short on centre experience. Ablett is the second most experienced centre currently at Leeds.



Who is saying it's the end of Leeds' season? It's the end of Leeds' Challenge Cup for another year though.



Is it equitable to include a game that only one British team gets the chance to compete in each season?

You're saying James Evans and David Howell are better than what we've got and to me they're second rate Aussies and not much if at all better than what we've got, buying these type of players would ruin the development of our young homegrown talent.

I never said anyone said it was the end of the season, all I said was some of the opinions people have expressed on this forum have been posts in the mindset that we can't win anything.

So even what you would call '2nd rate Aussies' are better than what Leeds have got at the moment? I think that's the point. I've always believed that a player's time is now. You don't include players just because sometime in the future they will be good enough, you play them when they are good enough.



As long as St Helens are lining up on the other side of the pitch that appears likely to be the case this season if the last three weeks is any guide to the future.

The funny thing is overall, man for man Leeds may just about have their measure but as a team they're not even close at the moment.