Or even some of the spare cap we had regardless of Eastwood not coming.

Because he made one 'hard' tackle on Faasavalu at KR a couple of weeks ago.

Even if you argue that St Helens' forwards were on top, I would still expect a lot more from Leeds supposed creative players. There seemed to be effort from them (esp Webb), but no real idea or talent, especially McGuire (who seemed to spend his day crabbing along the line waiting for a gap to open up).

If they were following some set coaching patterns or plays, it perhaps bodes even worse as they seldom broke the line. Also disappointing from Burrow, especially as St Helens didn't have a recognised scrum half playing. Or is it that there is little difference in the roles and responsibilities of halves these days and they are easily interchangable?

Leeds have played a flat attack for a few years but its been picked up on so we have to stand further back. There is still the option for flat but a decision has to be made. Leeds are struggling with that. I've never seen so much ball go to ground out of the ruck.

A while ago, St Helens were masters of the flat attack. For the past few seasons, probably since DA arrived we have a new attacking structure whereby we attack from deep, with countless runners, running good lines. We can still use the flat attack well, when needed, but I feel we have more success by attacking from deep. With the pace Leeds have, if they can master the same structure we use, they will pretty much be unplayable.

Agree entirely with that.

In all honesty, despite the championship last season, I think we started to be "found out" then, and we have not addressed to a plan B.

I've always been a fan of the deep line. Great to watch when played at speed. Whilever we get results playing a flat line I'm happy but still prefer the attack from deep option for entertainment value.

Weren't the bulls our closest rivals in Smith's early years?

This is the problem with stats to some extent you're always comparing apples and oranges.

Our ball retention was awful yesterday.

On the positive side we do have 6 months to get the deep attack working.

2007 GF what happened to Saints happened to Melbourne in the 2008 Aussie GF it was simply a bridge too far - the play off game did for them - more to do with that that any Smith masterplan IMO. The game at Headingley did they not have half a side out or was that the previous year?

Under McClennan the following players have improved in my opinion Hall, Smith, Burgess, Ablett, Kirke, Bailey, McGuire is far better stand off now than he was under Smith and Donald in 2008 but his swop seems to have had the reverse effect. Those that have got worse JJB - who was Smith's pet project - and Diskin the rest are much as they were. Some of the senior players are simply not going to improve - Webb, Senior, Sinfield, Peacock they just become more consistent.

On Burrow his confidence must be shot - two serious concussions in a short period of time cannot help - a big centre will simply run over him and they do regularly.

The only issues I have with McClennan is team selection - having said that he is hampered by the lack of attacking options on the right and until GH sorts that out the only structured attacking outlet is to Senior

2004 - on the league table it was Bradford and yet Leeds beat them four times out of five that season while only winning two from four V St Helens.

2005, 2006 and 2007 St Helens finished on top at the end of the SL Regular Rds so it'd be difficult to place them below anyone else as Leeds' chief opponents, a situation continued in 2008 and 2009 thus far.

Had Mclennan come up wit hthat performance I suspect you wouldn't be explaining it away, you'd have been creaming yourself. BTW, if they were shot from the playoff game who coached us in that?

They had some injuries but no less than they had yesterday.

OK, its' just opinions I guesss but if Hall didn't improve Mcl;ennan would be a lousy coach, under Smith he was a part time kid. Burgess didn't play under Smith so that is a strange statement. Donald was the same in 2008 as he was in 2007 9and 2006 for that matter). he's gone so far backwards under McLennan's master stroke of switching sides.

What does that mean? I know you've always had an issue ith JJB but surely you can see what a tremendous player Smith made him. Bluey has failed to keep that up. Maybe Bluey can't improve players the way Smith could??

Agreed. One wonders why the coach would ask him to defend a player like Matt Gidley.

What has changed on the right since that pinnacle in 2007 GF, or even Mclennan's effort in last years?

The Burrow of the last few years would have scored from that break, he took the complete wrong option, Gardner was still in the defensive line and Meli was on the other side.

It was like:

|--------------- Try Line ----------------|
|
|
|---------------Wellens-----Meli
|
|
|-------------Burrow
|
|
|--Defensive Line------------------------|

Burrow dummied his run to the left then came back on the right, now if he had either done it the other way round or just carried on running left he would have scored and usually you'd expect him to make the right desicion.

Burrow makes the break




Burrow runs to the left where he would beat Wellens to the line




Burrow comes back to the right where Wellens and Meli are.




Burrow is tackled

Burrow's decision was to take the tackle and look for a quick PTB.

Which achieved a 3 V 2 option on our right side attack

The error was in the subsequent play......

Was that when kylie drove the ball in when we had an over-lap?

It was Sinfield, very selfish and stupid play.

Oh right i know kylie did it aswell with a 4/2 over-lap.

Burrow had a chance when Gidley came out of the line, it was just unlucky that he dropped it.

and no way did he have both feet behind the line which PB made sure Leeds were doing at all times!

Said the same thing to our kid he's not that fast!!

it was winding me up when Leeds were on the line defending all you could here was "Both Feet Both Feet"

when table was turned he let them get away with loads.

PS anyone notice Saints fans (behind the sticks) still giving it forward ever set of six at somepoint hillarious!

I heard Leeds fans shouting forward more than the Saints fans if im honest. As you say, hilarious!

Gareth we must agree to differ on who is the better coach - as I already pointed out after 18 months in charge they both have identical records - it took Smith another three years after his first GF to win another - McClennan has plenty of time to emulate if not surpass what Smith achieved. If McClennan did that would put you between a rock and a hard place

For you Smith's win in 2007 was far superior to McClennan's win in 2008 you are entitled that view. For me given Saint's determination not get done a second time and after the hammering they took two weeks previous 2008 was a serious achievement - but then McClennan did that and it could not compare to Smith's win the previous!!!

On Burrow where can he hide him he had him on the opposite side to Gidley swop him with the centre and the he likely to get trampled by an even bigger player - what can he do other than not play him.

On injuries Saints had one key player out yesterday Long as I said I might be mistaken by for the home game in 2007 they had 5/6 first team players out.

Disagree re Donald 2008 was by far his best season at Leeds but that is opinions - JJB was Smith's favourite player, a player he personally spent many hours working one on one at the detrement of other players it could be argued - JJB responded to that and really developed as player - not sure he could expect that one on one to continue - his form is not the same but this year though he perform pretty well last year after he came back from injury.

As I said McClennan has improved as many players as Smith - how much of the improvement would have occured naturally and maybe Smith had more young players who would have improved anyway at his disposal?

2007 we had Toopi an international centre and Ellis - compare McClennan's win ratio in 2008 to Smith's in 2007 with basically the same squad - McClennan's surprisingly is better as is his for and against - stats who need them

Not really.

Anyone shouting forward when stood behind the posts needs putting to sleep. At least those on the side can actually see if its forward or not.