you forgotten last october already? when we lifted the trophy?

i see what you are getting at and to a certain extent agree.the structure and balance of the team is wrong.we have too many weak spots at the moment and saints exploited them to the full

I thought that Saints were obviously the better side. They looked sharper, the attacks were more fluent and in general they had a good control of the game.

On Bentham, I think that our first pen was awarded after 20 minutes and we were penalised a few times in the opening period. It's difficult to really gauge the refereeing from TV, but I somehow doubt that Saints were as innocent as Bentham had them in the opening quarter. We were also badly done to when we were penalised for a strip when it was 1-on-1, I felt the penalty for Saints for tackling the player without the ball was a joke. That happens numerous times every match and nothing happens. The difference today was that that Saints player started a melee, the game stopped and the ref decided to restart it with a pen for Saints. Clearly rewarding scrapping IMO. (And in reply to the comment earlier that the penalty was for an elbow at the player, if the offence was an attack with the elbow to a player without the ball then it'd have been a sending off offence.)

On top of that the two 40/20s and a few bounces of the ball meant that a 4 point defeat isn't too bad at all. It's disappointing that Saints have dominated the Challenge Cup and we've gone so long without winning it, but it's obvious that Saints would swap their CC wins for winning the GF. Let them have their Challenge Cups, we'll have the biggest prize.

I'm never watching a game drunk again as I can't believe the better team lost



If anything the players should take from this game is their lack of ambition in attack. Hopefully it'll all click together sometime this season because if it does Leeds will be an awesome side to watch.

What like he did in October 2008 - they played Saints 4 times last year and won twice - might have a chance the next time we play them it is the week after the CC final?

The problem is the squad IMO - the threequarter line is pretty abysmal for a top side - you cannot try and do top positions on the cheap if you are a top side - we have needed a serious centre for two years and Ellis has not been replaced. If you compare the two sides how many of our players would get into the Saints side?

However I do think McClennan made some selection mistakes today - playing either Kylie or Burgess before Bailey was an error both are liabilities in defence. Donald looks a shadow of the player he was on the right wing he needs swopping back and the right centre position needs sorting - for me Gibson doesn't offer enough, Watkins is too young and Smith is a FB. For me he should have stuck with Ablett

Webb probably
Donald
Senior
Maybe McGuire and Burrow
Peacock
Ali
Buderus

However, I wouldn't want too many Saints players in our side

Gidley for Smith
Graham for Leulaui
Roby for Diskin

Donald - not on his current form
McGuire & Burrow before Pryce and Long


Ali or Puletua not sure Ali wins there
Buderus before Cunningham - jury out on that one

It was accidental, the whole second paragraph of your post is utter cr*p.

Ref had nothing to do with it, as bad as he was.

Centre had nothing to do with it. Gibson was certainly not as bad as his wing partner.

Buderus was poor. But he is still not fit, and yet he was still far better than Diskin.

Dont give a about going out of the cup. Its an inferior trophy, as I have stated many times on these boards. Yet I was gutted yesterday, at the gulf in class between the two sides. Saints were far far better. Our march backwards in performance levels this season is alarming. I have stated it on 3 seperate occassions now, starting with the first game in regards preseason friendlies. Our tactics our poor, and we have been outplayed in all games, except Catalans, and half a game againts Wigan.

We played them 5 times last year.

No. I dont mean beat them, I mean comprehensively out play them and take them to the cleaners, like Smith's sides did twice in 2007. We blew them away in the league encounter at Headingley and in the GF with some exhilerating rugby. Mclennan's wins last year were nowhere near the same manner and I take nothing away from our GF win.

The problem is the coach IMO. We were very, very flat yesterday apart from the last 15 mins. They were 1st to all the loose balls. Look at the PTB before Gidley's 2nd half try. We had three tacklers, none of who were off the floor by the time the tackled player had played the ball.

You have mentioned in the past that a great coach improves players. Do you think JJB has improved under McLennan? What has happened to Burrow's defence? Where's the fluency in attack?

I have a suspicion that his arm around the shoulders and rah rah approach is starting to wear off and the team needs something with a little more substance.

Agreed. Kylie was grasping several times today. I'd assumed Bailey was still injured but of he was ommitted that is a huge gaff on Mclennan's part.

Of course it could be as simple as Saints have improved since then, which they quite obviously have.



Entirely agree. Everything there is spot on. But a change of tune to your comments of recent weeks, about everything is fine and we are top of the league.



Again entirely agree.

? What are you on about?

You are questioning our coach and his tactics. You have questioned that players have not improved under him.

You are correct.

Recently you have been slagging off posters for questioning how poor we are playing, saying everything is fine and we are top of the league.

If thats not a contradiction I dont know what is. Therefore a change of tune.

Your posts today are correct.

Have I?

When?

Not if we include all the times they played Saints last year.

Under Brian McClennan V St Helens:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

On average Leeds are no longer within a score of St Helens and it shows.

Just as a reference, under Tony Smith:

Played 14, Won 7, Drawn 0, Lost 7, Pts For 329, Pts Agst 301 (Avg Scr 24-22) 29%

A bit unfair tvoc Tony smith was here 4 yrs!!!

So you'd rather I compared their first seven games V St Helens instead then?

Brian McClennan:

Played 7, Won 2, Drawn 0, Lost 5, Pts For 112, Pts Agst 164 (Avg Scr 16-23) 29%

Tony Smith:

Played 7, Won 4, Drawn 0, Lost 3, Pts For 192, Pts Agst 171 (Avg Scr 27-24) 57%

Is that better?

From a Saints perspective on this I would say TS built Leeds to what they are now in those 4 years - a steady blooding of younger players and a harderned defence.

Out of the 7 we won, I'd like to see the breakdown of wins we had. I'd bet they were well before he left. In 2007 I always maintained Leeds were the best team in the comp although we finished in the top place in the regulare season. They beat us 3 out of 4 times if you include the play offs and they only lost the GF qualifier by 2 points.

Under McClennan, they obviously have a coach who can get the players up for when it matters - the GF and the Tri Nations testify to that - but I think they are less threatening, IMO.

I hope Saints can take the GF this year, but our lack of depth may catch us out and I still think Leeds and Saints are by far ahead of anyone else in the League. A sensible tip may well be Leeds to win the GF. Especially if it rains.

From the St Helens viewpoint where obviously a loss becomes a win:

13-Mar-04 ….. CC - 05 ….. Away ….. Lost 24 - 14
30-Apr-04 ….. 09 - 09 ….. Away ….. Lost 56 - 10
23-Jul-04 ….. 09 - 20 ….. Home ….. Won 70 - 0
10-Sep-04 ….. 09 - 27 ….. Away ….. Won 19 - 25
18-Feb-05 ….. 10 - 02 ….. Home ….. Won 30 - 18
27-May-05 ….. 10 - 15 ….. Away ….. Lost 38 - 24
30-Sep-05 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Won 16 - 19
24-Feb-06 ….. 11 - 03 ….. Away ….. Lost 13 - 4
22-Jul-06 ….. 11 - 22 ….. Home ….. Lost 14 - 18
09-Sep-06 ….. 11 - 27 ….. Away ….. Lost 54 - 18
21-Apr-07 ….. 12 - 11 ….. Home ….. Won 38 - 19
06-Jul-07 ….. 12 - 19 ….. Away ….. Won 10 - 22
28-Sep-07 ….. PO - QSF ….. Away ….. Lost 10 - 8
13-Oct-07 ….. PO - GF ….. Neutral ….. Won 6 - 33

2007 was payback for 2006.

1) Definitely true.
2) Also true, but it didn't affect the result.
3) Agree about Senior but not Burrow. I thought we lacked some direction and cohesion in midfield - we had chances to score (i.e. possession in the right area) but didn't take them and looked short of ideas. Burrow has to take some responsibility for this.
4) Buderus' passing was suspect today. Looked rusty, but neither hooker excelled.
5) Agree. Bailey's absence was exacerbated by Leuluai being our worst player, Burgess not having a good game and Kirke seeming to have little game time.
6) I think Gibson's getting some undeserved stick on here. I thought he did OK - didn't let anyone down in defence and I remember him putting Donald in space on the outside twice in the first half, the first one he dropped, the second he was tackled by Gilmour.
7) Agree.

I think our major deficiencies were front row and playmaking. I was disappointed that Burrow didn't control the game better, especially as Long was missing for them. In terms of changes, we're a little short of options dur to a lack of depth in the forwards in particular. I'd hope Bailey will play on Friday, possibly starting with Burgess and having Peacock in second row. A definite change must be to switch Donald to left wing - he looks a shadow of the player he was last year. I thought that when Lauitiiti offloaded to him in the second half and he was tackled into touch on the South Stand side that he didn't seem to be able to step off his right foot - unsurprising for a left winger! He's had a season and a few games on the right wing and been hit and miss. In two seasons on the left wing he was the best winger in the competition. He looks distinctly average now.

Time for Mr Hetherington to open the cheque book and offer Shenton a offer too good to refuse!!

Shenton would be ideal IMO, although I'd quite like to see him stay at Cas as they continue to improve.

Something is not right at leeds IMO The body language of the players seems very negative and we do't seem to have that spirit. Wether there is something going on behind the scenes I don't know but a lot of our players look tired and down. I have before posted we need to bleed the youngsters through but I have now changed my mind. Maybe a new signing will lift the team spirit.

Also If we were with out some class individual's we would be destroyed by saints. Burrow and Peacock seemed the only ones who turned up which is worrying. On paper i would say man for man we have the strongest team but we don't play like a team we to much rely on individual players.

Those days are gone. Shenton should be on more within Castleford's pay structure than he would be on at Leeds. Afterall they have the same cap at their disposal these days .

The pitch needs to be more along the lines of the one made to Gareth Ellis, 'come to Leeds and have a chance of winning things'.

Why is everyone bulling up Bailey? He too is liable in defence and does sod all in attack! Ablett is a forward not a centre. Specialist centre required asap please, but it will cost us some of the Eastwood cash.