Indeed not, but by its very nature a defib kit makes the decision for you by first detecting the 'ventrical fibulation' (sp ?) of an 'attacked' heart. If it can't scan it, it won't shock no matter what the problem is.

The way I teach people to use them, with a training kit and a dummy is literally to show someone how to turn the machine on ... It then 'talks' you through the rest of the process with little or no experience required.

They are 'that' easy to use ...

I am also a first aid trainer so am aware how simple they are to use.

My point was though that him having a heart attack could be on so many scales of severity and as nobody who was there mentioned anybody having to do CPR I also wondered (perhaps wrongly) that this wasn't the case for this man (and indeed I hope it wasn't) in which case the De-fib wouldn't have been needed but imo should have still been brought to the site ready for if things did take to a turn.

As for the club not responding to your concerns that is very worrying indeed and I would be tempted to take it further and report it to the RFL - although I doubt they would take it seriously either but at least you would be able to say you have done more than your fair share to help resolve the issue.

This highlights something I have said for a long time though which is the lack lustre approach too many people have towards first aid, the expect there to always be someone there to help them in such a situation but too few (and more often than not only those made to do so for work purposes) take the time to have any training in it and empower themselves with the ability to help those around them. The fact the club seem to take such an approach is very concerning imo.

I was sat on the back row of the carnegie stand & saw the St Johns & wondered what was happening - I know they seemed to be ages treating the man - I hope he is ok

The stewards at the stadium just don't care.

The majority of stewards are students who couldn't give a stuff and are only there to watch a free game and get paid for it.

I know, I've worked there.

Cos you can go in the Carnegie terrace with any ticket? Cant you Lawrie?



Still back on topic and i think it's a disgrace the length of time it took for St. Johns to react. I'm shocked there isn't a de-fib etc on site when we have a game on. Not only for the crowd, but players too.

Players are generally a different kettle of fish so to speak - the clubs own medical team is responsible for the treatment of players and unless specifically requested St John Ambulance (or other first aid providing organisations) are not allowed to enter the pitch area.

I was sitting in the same row as the gentleman and it was appalling at the lack of apparent facilities that were available and the speed that the St Johns arrived on the scene and what they actually did to help the situation. It is easy to point the finger at the steward but she did the best to get assistance asap. The club should be made aware that there medical facilities were found to be woefully inadequate and that the supporters do not find this acceptable. I intend to phone HQ and speak to the appropriate person to get an assurance that improvements will be made.
I know that Man utd have at least one registered Doctor in every tier of their stands in case of medical emergency.

- It sounds like it took too long for SJA to arrive I agree, but how long did it take for them to be informed they were needed? Was it communication from Stewards to them that failed or did they just not respond fast enough.

- And for someone having a heart attack there is often very little first aid wise that can be done to for someone having a heart attack other than to make them comfortable and monitor them until they are moved to hospital - half the battle can be keeping the person and (those around them) calm and easing the discomfort.

1st point. Is irrelevant as either way the SJA were not there inside 2mins which as you will know is critical in cases of heart attacks. Appreciate that for medical assistance to be present in 2mins is asking alot but 10 to 15mins as happened yesterday is unacceptable. The club have a duty of care to the spectators which by yesterday's incident it failed to observe.

2nd point. What would have happened if the sitaution had been serious. Do we hope that any future cases are as you describe. Are we to rely on luck that a member of the medical profession is sitting in the close vacinity , or do we ask the questions and insist on the club taking action to ensure that well bieng of its supporters.

I have never justified the time taken - indeed i have encouraged people who witnessed it to complain.

You can't compare how they treated that to how they would treat something more serious because they are two different things. What seems like not doing a lot in the case of a heart attack can actually be doing a lot and I can pretty much guarantee that had it been more serious and the need for resuscitation or anything else had been there then the situation would have appeared very different when treating. Remember though if your having a heart attack the last thing you need is a lot of strangers flapping around and creating panic, where possible it is essential that a calm and controlled approach is taken to the treatment for the sake of the Casualty and their family and friends. It doesn't for a second mean the situation is being taken seriously though.

If I was our CEO I would be very concerned at reading this thread.

Lets hope the chap is OK.

From a Health & Safety point of view this is very alarming though.

I would have thought excellent medical facilities to spring into action in the event of an emergency were high up,if not top of the list of requirements to get a safety certificate for the ground,which without one would mean games could not be played at the ground.

As I say lets pray the guy is recovering and OK as if the worst had happened and it was proven that the clubs poor medical attention/response/facilities,stewards action etc was a primary cause then i'm sure some no win no fee compensation firm would have a case for arguing negligence on the clubs behalf?

don;t work in insurance by any chance cheeky

Do they have those fruit ones?

Tell you what was alarming. The crush in the North-East corner in the ten minutes around kick off.

One thing that should have been proved yesterday is that Cricket and Rugby can't be staged on the same day again.

This highlights a lack of basic training among stewards. Not the individual's fault, necessarily, but they should be trained. Time is of the essence and the most important thing (after giving polos) is to get a paramedic or other medically trained person on the scene. There is little you can do as a first aider other than keep the patient as comfortable as possible and get help. It is a pretty simple matter to train stewards in this. Acute chest pain = Ambulance. No dithering. Then if you have first aid training you can assess what else you might be able to do while you wait. The club definitely need to make sure this is addressed.

As for defibs, I'm unconvinced by the benefits of having them dotted around everywhere. It would have been of no value or relevance in this case, or most others. Most people who reach the stage of needing one will not recover, contrary to what you see on TV, and they are quite dangerous things to use without proper training. When somebody needs emergency defibrillation it's a bit of a shot-to-nothing as they are effectively dead without it, but making the judgement that they've reached that point is not something to be entrusted to the genreal public. IMO.

You don't get enough training working there. A quick 4 hour workshop and an exam at the end, and that's it.

That should still be enough time to shout the words "IF SOMEONE COLLAPSES WITH CHEST PAIN, CALL AN AMBULANCE STRAIGHT AWAY" at them for a couple of minutes.

The bloke that did my induction was more interested in cracking poor jokes David Brent style.

I can see the pros and cons of defibs in public places - where people are correctly trained to use them then they are invaluable and more effective the sooner they are used. The problem with having them easily accessible in public places is the risk someone without the training would try to help and as easy as they are to use they are still very dangerous if used incorrectly.

Personally I think more people trained in first aid probably has more benfits than having the defibs dotted around - a lot of time if someone goes into cardiac arrest it won't be somewhere a defib is available (people don't have them in their homes, they aren't available when walking down the street etc etc) I have been a first aider for 14 years and the only time I have had to do CPR in that time being defib trained would have been no use at all because I was in the middle of the street at the time. I know a lot more people who have had to do CPR in positions where a defib wasn't immediately available than have where the defib was available.

That said places such as Rugby Grounds and similar should (and in all honesty probably do) have defibs and operators available at all times.

Have you ever used a de-fib trainer ?

One of the main reasons they're dotted around town centres now is that they ARE easy to use even by a lay-person and in a case where it is not a heart attack the machine WILL NOT operate.

Whilst they are not the be-all and end-all of cardiac failure, the statistics will show that the chances of recovering from a heart attack after first aid is very low, this is offset by the relative small cost for a unit saving at least one life and thus, being worth it.

The recent first aid ethos says that if you're not breathing and you've no pluse / heartbeat, then you're 'brown bread'. Things cannot get any worse. However, if you do something and it is one of those rare occasions when it DOES make a difference, wouldn't you have rather had the satisfaction of using those easy to learn techniques there and then to make a difference ?

Indeed, not least the Safety In Sports Grounds regulations, but a whole plethora of other legislation.

Perhaps another organisation that should be taking an interest is the local authority department responsible for the issuing of said safety certificate.

Headingley is one of the largest still-standing stadiums in the country and I hold the opinion that when properly controlled, a standing stadium can still be a safe stadium. To acheive this, you've got to make 110% sure that part-time staff and casual workers are full up-to-speed with ALL health, safety and emergency proceedures and not just there for the paid day out watching the game.

Having said that, it is not just Leeds, given my comments / observations on the experience on a certain club to the East of here earlier in the season.

I assume during that session, you covered the evacuation proceedures for the stadium ?

We were sat a few rows away, not near enough to be aware of the severity of the situation.

Don't know what the protocols are for the stewards when seeking medical attention, but I assume they have to link with the head steward in some way - who I'd like to think, if it was pointed out someone was having chest pains, would phone 999 immediately and not delay by getting SJA involved.

Hope he makes a good recovery.

Has the OP or any previous posters reported their concerns to the club and if so have they had a response yet?

1) Scream
2) Run
3) Repeat as necessary