Kirke

....Motivate them perhaps ?

Just why are you [iso[/i defensive of McDermott ? Do you actually believe he is a good coach ? Best in RL ? Best in SL ? Would other clubs be clamouring for his signature ?

I agree with you, Kirke is not our best prop, but you can't slate Mac for playing him when we have injuries. Your comment re motivation is an interesting one - a coach can only do so much to motivate players (he certainly did a good job in the games after the Final), and again, I think the players struggled to get motivated for a game against London the week before the Final against Wigan.

I've outlined in my original post why I'm defensive of him, so I would refer you to that for a reason, and whether or not I actually believe he is a good coach (yes). And yes, I definitely think other Clubs would be wanting his signature, he's been well praised by many for what he did last year, so I have to ask why some of the fans don't rate him at all when people within rugby league, inside and outside our club, have praised him. When I've gone to all the effort I have in this thread to explain my views, perhaps you could explain yours a bit better.

Is that because he's a back-rower?

Your assessment is all too simplistic. These days in SL it is becoming all too easy for a side to run away with it in the first 20 or 30 minutes. A few errors, a few bad calls from officials lead to handing over crucial possession and therefore the all important momentum to a side in form.

Scores do not always truly reflect the full 80 minutes and with the odd exception Leeds have not been “thrashed” on a regular basis.

The “poor technique” and “bad discipline” have been evident for long before BMcD was appointed and these same players with all their faults have a very impressive and remarkable record which includes another GF victory last year and this season a WCC victory under this coach.

Anyone who has coached will realise the difficulty of trying to change deep routed habits and personality disorders in established players let alone international stars.

You also state that a “lack of (visible) coaching” is to blame for these many “thrashings” Quite what you mean by this I do not know. And would you like to provide evidence you have to substantiate your accusations?

I do not seek to paper over any cracks but neither do I put the blame on our coach for poor form from senior players. The disgraceful abuse of a man who has proven his abilities and is doing his best is really the pits

Sorry my spelling of batten upset you but I guess I must have thought a piece of timber is appropriate when trying to understand ‘woodentops’

"Simplistic" ? Why bother trying to analyse performances in such great depth ? As others have stated, RL is a simple game......at times we [ihave[/i been crap. Simple.

"Not thrashed on a regular basis" ? Depends how one defines 'regular' I guess. It [uhas[/u been too 'regular' for me personally this season. For a team perceived to be within the top echelons of SL I would suggest that this season the 'thrashings' have been [ivery[/i 'regular' ....how many times have Wigan/Warrington/Saints conversely been 'thrashed' by Leeds this season or indeed these last couple of seasons ?

..."difficulty of trying to change deep routed habits" ? So are you conceding McDermott is not up to the job ? I would have thought the easiest way to achieve this would be to show strength and drop anybody not listening to instructions ? Forgive my naievity. but isn't that why you have a squad of approx 30 first teamers ? No point is there (surely?) if the first 17-20 are going to be selected despite these "deep routed habits" ?? Seems pretty weak to me.

You can be excused for your faux pas if you were able to conjure up some batonburg cake to share....good luck on that one

Nantwichexile - I don't agree that rugby league is a simple game. Football, I would say, is a simple game - there is relative transparency in each pass of the ball and each play, but in rugby league, analysis of the performance allows us to understand better where we went wrong and/or where we played well. I frequently go to the game and watch it back on my Sky+ later, and often see things that during game time you can't see due to distance from the field or focus being elsewhere.

No-one enjoys a thrashing, but I wouldn't be getting too despondent about the two we've had this year; they were nowhere near what we've shown we are capable of, both at the end of this season and with a few good performances earlier this season, it was almost like we just didn't turn up. What you need to remember is that EVERYONE, every single team wants to turn us over so of course they raise their game against us, so when WE win, I don't expect a thrashing, I just expect a good performance. Where we have thrashed teams in the last 18 months it was the smaller clubs and I don't think anyone took confidence from the score alone, but the performance itself.

In terms of McDermott "showing strength", who would you suggest he drops and why? How many players do you think he should drop all in one go? If he did this, would you be happy, or would you be upset if the young replacements got thrashed? The squad of approximately 30 first teamers, as I hope you are aware, really only contains 21/22 at most who are of week-in, week-out standard, plus a couple of academy players who you might hope to give a game or two to. I've said this in earlier posts but I can't see how dropping any of the senior players is going to help anything; what they need now is a decent performance and the confidence they can take from that.

Players don't need to be dropped completely....you could for example drop the over-used knackered Sinfield and Peacock to the bench whilst starting Ward and Singleton. Webb needs dropping because of his petulance, allowing high bombs to bounce.... and to see what we might start with next year. Hardaker is not succeeding at LC: it seems prudent to allow him time at FB with perhaps Keinhorst given a run at LC (or Chisholm on the left wing with Hall moved inside). We know Ablett can cover if all else fails. Kirke needs dropping in favour of Daniel Smith perhaps. We need to stop pretending Lee Smith can regain his pre-RU form......at least in the outside backs. At best use him at FB or in the middle and develop any remaining talent there.

I agree that Sinfield and Peacock could do with a rest, and while I would perhaps start Ward (on occassion), I would only bring Singleton off the bench - we have other props who would deserve to start (Richard Moore for me). I don't agree that Webb needs dropping, he might not have played well in his brief stint last week but as I say earlier in this thread, he's made a number of tries this year with some brilliant passes and creation of opportunity so at the very least, the good weighs the same as the bad. Hardaker is not playing to his best at the moment but I thought he was outstanding filling in at fullback last week, I certainly wouldn't put Lee Smith there over him. Keinhorst will hopefully get a couple of games before the end of the season but again, I wouldn't just drop him in the deep end and play him every week (I outline why in previous posts). The same would go for Dan Smith, but again, we've got some really good competition at prop (JP, Leuluai, Bailey, Moore, Griffin and Singleton without including Kirke) so there's no need to be playing him every week.

This being said... you haven't said how Mac would be showing strength by doing any of this?

Richard Moore maybe...but I would always prioritise the kids with a longer future if feasible. I agree about Webb's try creating abilities, but the fact is he is leaving at the end of the season: IMO we should be looking at the options now. Who said anything about playing the likes of Keinhorst or Dan Smith every week at this stage ??

McDermott would show 'strength' by demonstrating he is in charge: at the moment the senior players appear to be.

To be honest this debate is fine and dandy, but at the end of the day (don't you just detest cliches ?

) it's hardly worth spending hours of time on it. It's not as though [uwe[/u can actually do anything about it....UNLESS you [uare[/u Brian of course

I can't agree with prioritising the younger kids - if a player has worked his backside off to play well, he should be rewarded for that whatever his age. The kids are the future of the Club but we also have a responsibility to give them time to get used to Superleague, and it's better if (certainly on debut) they can come off the bench on say 25-30 minutes at the earliest when *hopefully* the opposition is a little more tired. I agree it's worth seeing what our options are for next season, especially if the injury Webb picked up last week is going to keep him out. When I talked about playing young lads every week, I assumed when you suggested dropping players that you meant for a longer period of time than just one game.

I don't think it seems like the senior players are in charge at the moment - I think Mac's shown great strength in shaking things up a bit and playing Burrow at hooker, as one example. Obviously we've played the big 3 twice this year already (Saints, Wigan and Warrington) and those are the games that you just can't afford to drop any senior players for; one because it would be a big ask for any youngster making a debut, and two because at any time our senior players could click and change the game. We need to keep faith with these guys for the rest of the year for that very reason, though we've got a few fixtures coming up (Wakey on Monday, London in a couple of weeks, and Wakey again at the end of July) where we could rest a couple and play a few young lads. Giving a good performance against any team will lift the players and should give them the confidence they'll need in the run up to the end of the season and through the play-offs.

Totally respect what you say about this debate, but the debate is ultimately about Mac as a coach, and I've been happy to spend the time this week defending him; I can't tell you how frustrated I've been with some of the non-reasoned and highly personal abuse I've heard (though I've tried throughout this thread)! I can also tell you it would take some highly taxing physical and mental changes for me to be Brian McDermott!!

How long do you accept below standard -performances from "senior players" before they become droppable??
How long as an elite coach should it take to change clear weakness' within our defensive structure?
How long before it's deemed reasonable to question a coaches selections ,tactics or lack of and blind faith in things that clearly aren't working?
How far do you have to run ageing Props into the ground before rotating them?
Good performances against Wakey ,Cas and London will only be looking to cover the ever widening cracks within our set up this year and won't do anything to address the previous lack of even looking like a challenging team against the likes of ST's and the Pies!!
Whatever defence you and JC put up for the coach ,team ,tackle bags and hot dog vender the questions and criticisims are very VALID and carry weight with more evidence to back those!!
Now there are some tough calls needed and burying yer head in the sand ,throwing cliche's about and hoping we come good isn't gonna work.

This.

Something is rotten in the state of Denmark and a handful of top draw performances at the business end of the season simply masks the facts that we have an ageing and tired looking pack, a full back that is either sublime or woeful and a management team who seem to insist on playing players out of their natural positions .

I could not (and indeed did not) put it any better myself.



Being the incontrovertible dedicated supporter you are I do hope the powers that be will listen to to the likes of these concerns rather than complacently placate themselves with the ever patient acolytes who would slavishly follow the team unquestioningly ...whatever the warning signs.

rhinowinorlose?

I suppose I am, and in probabability will belucky to live long enough to continue being a ticket holder as long as i already have been. And yes the value given has decreased but it's certainly less hassle having one and would agree with g1 that the match itself is only a part of being a regular attender. I'm probably less of a fan'atic' either being older or realising that you can be poor in parts and win the title.

The golden period though was 2004 up to the finals of 2005 as we had a period of consistency and exciting play.

After the final losses came a justification of pacing a season though i think there's a big differencebetween losing a game due to rotation and woefully underperforming

I just think your solutions are too reactionary and you are unfair in blaming our champion coach for everything. It is sport remember and we have a team of imperfect humans. To drop all proven established players and replace them with the youngsters is plain irresponsible.

(Oh and by the way... it's naivety)

This I completely agree with, and it is a debate about his capability as a coach. He's a guy doing his job honestly and to the best of his ability, he's a decent guy and I believe has a lot to offer the club. He got a lot of stick last year for the rubber glove and the floodlight incidents and I thought that was all nonsense. Last year he defended Bailey brilliantly in the press after the Hudds incident and was a credit to the club in his after match interview at the CC final.
But is he the right person to be making certain crucial decisions at the club with regard to the team and the squad development? tvoc points out - quite correctly - that his previous head coaching record is one of decline. Now there may be mitigating factors, there are certainly things at Leeds that he has inherited that have not made the job easy. But given that there needs to be a particular job done at Leeds with regards to a squad that is slowly losing established leaders to the inevitable passing of years then the question "is McDermott the right man for the task" is what we are talking about. In the opinion of many he isn't, and as he has no actual track record for doing the job needed successfuly. We appear to be losing ground this year and looking more and more disorganised, so it might be fair to say we need someone else to make these decisions.

I believe much the same as G1, that we have a solid club - the best foundation in the game, manageed superbly well, we have a good squad with some of the best players ever to wear a Leeds shirt -although some are now in the twighlight of their careers, and some highly promising young players. How we go from here is down to the skills of the leader. You obviously believe Brian is the right guy, others don't. The personal abuse for McD is not required to debate this point and I don't think he deserves it.

we need a 2002 cull at some point.

people say need the golden days of danny 6 , rob 7 , kev 13

there has to be a time of thanks but no thabks they are all 30, and extending contracts of 35 year old props ? remember jeffosaurus

Did he or gary choose his no2?

Is his no2 there for his usefulness or because he's his best mate?

There's a difference between questioning the selections & tactics of the coach (which I'm all for), and proclaiming him unfit for the job (for which he deserves some latitude in light of the GF & WCC).

As for 'burying yer head in the sand, throwing cliches about and hoping we come good' not working, what pray tell do you propose we do as fans of the club? Kidnap Kath H and not return her until McDermott is sacked and Craig Bellamy appointed with Wayne Bennett as his assistant?! Last time I checked none of the regular posters on here are board members. For all the collective apoplexy on this forum it isn't going to change anything. Yes, the team is under-performing, big deal, that's the nature of sport. Recent comments from GH suggest he's hardly happy with the situation, but wisely he's giving the team until the end of the season before wielding the axe prematurely.

Just so we are clear the post was aimed at the OP and his questioning of certain fans opinions re-coaching and the criticism on his tenure and the problems the team are clearly having.
Where have i said we CAN change anything?? other than offereing constructive views on how we se the team.
As paying fans we have the right to air our views and offer differing opinions on how we see the game ,club ,team etc etc afterall it's a RL forum of which this one in particular is mainly for Leeds fans.
"Big deal" it may be to you but some care more than that and are looking for improvements from the team that is better than what they are producing and there's much more depth of opinion than just "wielding the axe" prematurely.
If you don't give a flying one then fair enough that's your opinion but that won't stop others offering theirs either no matter how pathetic your response is.

Fair enough. It's easy for me to have a detached attitude given where I live (well, normally - actually I'm in Bradford at the moment and going to Monday's game...).

Hi rhinoms,

Sorry for my lack of reply over the weekend – busy one! I think I’ve already answered pretty much all of your questions in my previous posts but I’ll go through them again for you.

To answer your first question about senior players, I would initially point you towards last season. The way we played for the majority of last season was totally unprecedented (much like now), but ultimately the players came good for us, and I trust them to do the same this year. We also have to bear in mind the consequences of dropping a senior player, for example, if this player is a confidence player, how will this affect the rest of his season? Yes, in a team sometimes it is necessary to drop one for the sake of the others, but I think that it’s right to show a certain amount of faith when we know what they are capable of. The other thing you need to bear in mind is who you bring in in that player’s place; if it’s a young player, we need to make sure that we look after that player’s needs too.

In terms of defensive structure, how do we know that this is not being worked on intensively in training? I discuss in my original post that missed tackles, knock-ons etc are NOT the fault of the coach.

How long before it’s reasonable to question the coach? When has he EVER not been questioned?! Many of the fans started to question Mac almost as soon as the 2011 season began. I have no problem with questioning the overall performances, but explain what I think the problem is in my original post.

When you talk about aging props, I can only assume you mean Jamie Peacock, as Kylie Leuluai has been great for us, as has Richard Moore. Maybe JP needs to be rested, but in previous posts I’ve talked about the confidence that could be gained from a good performance against ANY team, and maybe Mac feels that he would benefit from being a part of that.

When I talk about good performances against Cas, Wakey and London I talk about them in the context of gaining a bit of confidence (obviously we didn’t get that on Monday). On their own, they might paper over the cracks, as the performances in last 65 minutes of the Challenge Cup Final, against Wakey at home last year and against Huddersfield away last year might have, but those performances gave us a good platform for the play-offs and the Grand Final. The losses against Wigan and Saints this year have been disappointing, but as I’ve already mentioned in previous posts, we were competitive against Wigan away (with one eye on the World Club Challenge), and for 60 minutes against Saints at home. I think it’s pretty unfair to say we didn’t challenge them, unless you are only looking at the headlines from the Saints away and Wigan at home games.

I do not agree that the criticisms of Mac have more evidence to back them – many people have questioned my detailed defence at the start of this thread, but few (including yourself) have actually backed up with any evidence. The criticism of the performances at the moment are valid, but I have explained very articulately that I think they are mis-directed. I don’t think anyone could accuse me of burying my head in the sand either, but seeing as none of us are actually in any position to do anything, the only thing we can do is hope things come good.

In terms of everyone else’s comments – Fat Boy, can you tell me who you think is being played out of position? I’ve gone into detail on Rob Burrow to hooker (he’s miles better there), Danny McGuire has always been able to play 7 as well as 6, and this isn't the first time we're seeing Kevin Sinfield play at 6 (of course, he can play at 9 too).

DHM – you make some really fair comments. To those who put so much emphasis on track record, I would point them to Ian Millward – we all know what happened at Wigan when he went there, and of course what’s happening at Cas. In my opinion, a good track record counts for nothing when you’re losing, and a bad one is a convenient stick with which to beat you!

doc-rhino – Like many others, I wasn’t initially thrilled at the thought of seeing Jimmy Lowes in our dressing room! But when I thought about it afterwards, they’ve both worked with many of the same people (Brian Noble when playing, Tony Smith when coaching – incidentally two of the names I’ve heard people calling for as new coaches), so I suspect that Jimmy was chosen because his philosophy is much the same as Mac’s.

rhinoms – I know this last post wasn’t for me, but I wouldn’t say that your questions offered constructive views. I agree that as paying fans we have a right to air our views but only to an extent – if they are constructive, yes, but booing and heckling a coach who has reached 3 Finals in one year, winning 2 of them, no, and in fact I’d go as far to say that this would not happen at any other Club in Superleague (if Royce Simmons had done this, he’d have been signing a contract extension at the end of February). As a SUPPORTer that’s exactly what I do, week in week out, win or lose – I SUPPORT. To me, that means caring enough to put together constructive criticism and/or defence, but still turning up and cheering on the lads every week. Whining and moaning does not mean you care any more than anyone else, it just means that that’s how YOU respond to the current situation.

Isn't the bottom line here that under McDermott London's league position regressed season (2007) after season (200icon_cool.gif after season (2009) after season (2010) and Leeds' league position has followed the same pattern (2011) and continues in that direction thus far in 2012.

Perhaps of more concern though (as League position can be sacrificed to some extent in pursuit of the bigger picture) Leeds' head to head results with the better SL clubs are becoming less competitive and we are now in danger of joining our good friends on Humberside as potential play-off cannon fodder?

While it's still the case that you cannot write off this group of Champion player's potential to produce something extraordinary on any given occassion it's not a formula likely to bring consistent success or a sound base for the club to build on, IMO. Even if McDermott gives of his best I don't think is best is good enough and judging by the level of performance it appears that neither do the players..

I think 'rhinowinorlose' has most eloquently answered all your points several times over and needs little help from me. It is so refreshing to have fellow positive poster to take on the negative brigade.

What you still seem to miss is that I have never been critical of your right to be critical. Neither am I blind to the poor performances of the team both last year and again this year. What I argue with is the unfair blame game that features in much of the critical comments and the lack of understanding the importance of loyalty in a team game.

Yes it is true many of the senior players are out of form and are showing their age. But is your only solution to sack the coach and drop all the out of form players and play a team of inexperienced youngsters not yet ready for regular SL? And what do you do when they too fail to beat the top sides.... drop them too and play the juniors? (No need to ask 'nantwich' on that score

)

By the way for how many matches are you suggesting we drop the majority of the team which would include Sinfield, JP, Bailey and all? And having been dropped how would you suggest they regain their form? Or do would you transfer or retire the lot?

I do not follow the flawed logic that because our aging players have lost form it shows that the coach is not up to the job.

Some players need a rest while others need to play through the bad form and come out the other side sharper. The coaches tend to know this better than the spectators.

How quickly you forget and how quickly you become disloyal when the going gets tough. We suffered the same lack of form by the same players last year but the coach kept his faith and we were rewarded with yet another GF win. These same players and coaches carried this forward at the start of this year and won another WCC yet you jump on the "off with his head" bandwagon within a couple of months.

Your assumtion, that this same set of outstanding players and coaches suddenly know nothing of defensive structures is naive. I repeat this is sport and we have to accept the ups and downs of form and luck.

Having said this I too would have liked to have seen a quality signing or two but I am not privy to the facts on the availability or costs, so I cannot be too critical of the management.

I am quite sure there has been a lot of constructive criticism in the dressing room but also some patience and understanding and I am sure this group will understand the importance of loyalty in achieving success.

Maybe some of the seniors in the squad finally have reached the end of their top level careers but the side is current SL Champions and WCC holders so do you not think they deserve the chance to complete the season before making the decision to replace them?