I wanted to start this thread to address what I feel is truly shameful treatment of Brian McDermott by some of the Rhinos fans. Looking at the Rhinos facebook page, the comments that have been made are not only highly narrow-minded, but also very personal, and in the same way that these people have spoken out to vent their frustration at recent results, I now need to vent mine. Brian McDermott has been in the job for just over 18 months now, and I really believe that he’s been a convenient scapegoat for the issues that we’ve had, with anything positive that he’s done being conveniently forgotten.

[uThe transition[/u
Mac joined us after a disappointing 2010 season under Brian McClennan – we finished fourth, losing 9 games, and lost both the World Club Challenge and the Challenge Cup final (a game which frankly seemed like we never even got off the bus).

We started the 2011 season without Jamie Peacock and Danny McGuire, who only returned to the squad at the end of April (nearly half way through the season), and yet during this first season under Mac, we only lost 2 more games than 2010, and we reached both the Challenge Cup and Grand Finals. While the first 15 minutes of the Challenge Cup Final were undoubtedly disappointing, we were the better team for 65 minutes of the game and if we’d been on the right end of a couple of poor decisions from Robert Hicks (as touch judge) and Phil Bentham, the end result could have been somewhat different.

[uIndividual Players[/u
While I appreciate that our results at the start of this year and last have not been what we might have hoped, I now want to point out the many positives that Mac has achieved over the last 18 months, starting with his achievements with individual players:

Ben Jones-Bishop – Mac took Bish on loan at London in the 2010 season, giving him his first real chance in Superleague. When they both came back to Leeds in 2011, he started Bish at Cardiff against Bradford, seeing him score a hat-trick and win the game for us by using his head, and playing to the whistle (albeit a penalty try was given). Following this, the player that Brian McClennan wanted to loan out, not even recalling when we were injury-struck at the start of 2010, became invaluable to us; more invaluable than the fan-favourite we signed during this injury-struck period, Lee Smith.

Zak Hardaker – Zak signed for us at the end of the 2010 season, and spent most of the 2011 season playing with either Featherstone or the under-20s, settling in at the Club. Mac chose to play Zak each week following the Challenge Cup final, and we witnessed some great work by Zak, including a hat-trick at Huddersfield and a really solid performance from such a young player at Old Trafford. His performances this season so far might be a mixed bag, but nonetheless Mac gave him his chance and he’s shown what he can do.

Rob Burrow – When Burrow first started playing for us, no-one knew how to handle him, and he was explosive. Unfortunately however, with the emergence of younger players such as Sam Tomkins and Kyle Eastmond, who arguably at their best play a similar style of rugby to Burrow at his best, more teams know how to close him down and he has been unable to create opportunities like he used to. Towards the end of last season, with Danny McGuire recovering well from his injury, Mac took the choice to play Burrow off the bench, and we started to see once again what Rob can do as a fresh pair of legs on around 25 minutes.

Many teams now employ this tactic with replacement hookers, and of course this is another position Rob can play. Where he excels off the bench is because he can see the wider game, he can spot opportunities right across the field, and Mac’s decision to play him at hooker utilises these skills well. Burrow can help dictate the game from either hooker or the bench, where is closed down at scrum half (as we saw at St Helens away before his injury). Interestingly, Rob started at scrum half against Warrington last week but was moved to hooker on 30 minutes with the substitution of Stevie Ward for Shaun Lunt. Mac's decision to do this made a big impact, with Burrow really kicking into gear and having a hand in all three tries. It's fair to say that from 30 minutes, we played a lot better.

Carl Ablett – Ablett has been a regular in our side for a long time, but he’s really come on leaps and bounds since 2010. It was Mac who awarded him his first starting jersey, and it was under Mac that he was first selected for England. I strongly believe that neither Brian McClennan nor Tony Smith would have continually played Ablett in the centre, where he excels, to ease an injury situation; they would have played Lee Smith in that position because he has played there before, regardless of whether or not he was overweight or playing poorly.

Lee Smith – Regardless of his reputation pre-Wasps, Mac has dropped Smithy when he hasn’t been playing well; like I say above, he’s chosen Hardaker and Jones-Bishop instead, and has been right to do so. I’ve heard many of you comment that Smithy was overweight at the start of last season, but to his credit he seems to have sorted this out in the 2012 pre-season. Mac has rewarded this by giving him another chance – something I think every single one of you would expect from your boss if you had made an error.

Brett Delaney – When Delaney first arrived in 2010, it took him a little while to settle in, and he certainly didn’t come across as an immediate replacement for pre-Wasps Lee Smith. He had a mixed bag year at centre under Brian McClennan but Mac moved him into the second row in 2011 and now, he’s a machine.

Ryan Bailey – Ryan Bailey, again, has been a regular for us for a long time now, but he has lacked consistency, and there are many occasions when he hasn’t used his size to make tackles or plough through defence. This being said, he is in the form of his life – he’s been tremendous over the last 18 months, and it’s fair to say the last time he played this well was in 2004. It’s no coincidence that Mac has been involved in all three of these seasons.

Richard Moore – When we first signed Richard Moore, I must confess, I had my doubts. But this guy has exceeded even my wildest expectations – he attracts at least 3 men in each tackle, can make a good offload, and is a tackling machine. Would any of our former coaches have signed him? Not likely – but Mac saw a player who could inject some good size into our squad (something we lacked in 2010, undoubtedly) and has real value.

[uPast coaches[/u
We have been privileged in the last 10/11 years to reach 10 finals (not including the World Club Challenges), with several of the players featuring in all or most of these seasons. We experienced disappointment under Daryl Powell (DP), some success under Tony Smith (TS) (2005 being a heart-breaker, and 2006 under-performing), and a poor final season in 2010 under Brian McClennan (BMcC). Out of interest, I wanted to see our league positions and numbers of losses in these years:

2002 (DP) – 4th place – 11 losses – no finals
2003 (DP) – 2nd place – 6 losses (3 draws) – 1 losing final
2004 (TS) – 1st place – 2 losses (2 draws) – 1 winning final
2005 (TS) – 2nd place – 6 losses – 2 losing finals
2006 (TS) – 3rd place – 9 losses – no finals
2007 (TS) – 2nd place – 8 losses (1 draw) – 1 winning final
2008 (BM) – 2nd place – 6 losses – 1 winning final
2009 (BMcC) – 1st place – 6 losses – 1 winning final
2010 (BMcC) – 4th place – 9 losses (1 draw) – 1 losing final
2011 (BMcD) – 5th place – 11 losses (1 draw) – 1 losing final, 1 winning final

Credit where credit’s due, Tony Smith, without a doubt, was the instigator of our success – he taught our lads (who were 8 years younger than they are now, and many of whom had never won a final) how to play some excellent rugby, and brought home our first championship for 32 years. 2005 was incredibly disappointing, but the fans stood by Smithy, even when his decision to play the still injured Keith Senior instead of Barrie McDermott was a large part of what cost us the Challenge Cup final. In 2006, with a disappointing third place finish and no finals, I don’t remember anyone booing Tony Smith’s face on the big screen, or calling him names on the forums. I don’t remember anyone doing those things for Brian McClennan in 2010 either.

[uAddressing fans comments[/u
I totally understand everyone’s frustration at our performances this year, but like I say above, it disappoints me that some of you are aiming this frustration at Brian McDermott; offering little justification for doing so and often being really personal with your comments. Here are some of the comments I’ve come across:

Kevin Sinfield does the half-time team talks – how do you know this happens on a consistent basis? Because you’ve seen a 20 second clip on Sky? This is a ridiculous comment to make – we can’t possibly know what goes on at half-time so to use this as criticism of Mac is really strange.

The players just do as they’re told, if they’re crap it’s down to the manager – think about why the players are under-achieving at the moment. This is nothing to do with the “plays” themselves, it’s because in every single game we’ve lost this year, we’ve missed tackles, knocked on, had a poor kicking game, and given away silly penalties. Anyone who really believes the players are being told to do this, frankly needs their head testing.

The team were solely responsible for the back-end of last season – if this is true, why aren’t we performing now? Again, we are losing games because of the lack of basic rugby skills, not because the “plays” aren’t any good.

Brian McDermott has no passion – how do you know this? Do any of you know him, know him well? For me, his passion for our Club and our players came across in the motivational video that helped us get to the Grand Final.

I’m not going to go through some of the more personal comments I’ve seen and heard the fans make, but I just hope that none of you get abused at work like you’ve been abusing Mac. The fans, yes, are important to the Club and we have been rewarded for our loyalty with a number of finals in the last ten years and some fantastic performances in the regular season. We have the right to be frustrated, but we do not have the right to gang up like pack animals and be as abusive as what I’ve seen and heard.

I have always been proud to be a Rhino because we’ve stuck together through thick and thin, so when I see some of you treating one of our own this way, it just doesn’t sit right with me. Mac has not only got the backing of the Club, but the backing of the players – over the last year, a number of players have signed contract extensions, and this surely isn’t in spite of Mac, but in part, with him. If the players and the Club back him, so do I, and I back the players to start playing better this year and once again, give us something to be proud of.

Very passionate. Very nice. Much too in depth and clever for half the people on this forum.

Whilst i completely agree any personal abuse is unwarranted should the team and management be exempt any criticism for p!$$ poor performances???
If you read most commenst on here 995 of us just want the team to compete the winning is a bonus but we never looked like competeing with ST's ,Pies or Wire until the game was gone!!
Now good for you supporting through thick and thin surprisingly most of us still attend and have the same philosphy but we also have the RIGHT to be critical when the same mistakes and the poor standards are getting repeated.
Do you think Sinfield is secure defending out wide?
Do you think the coach shouldn't be questioned for not using ALL his subs or giving 1 or 2 5 minute spells when it's CLEAR our forwards are knackered?
How about our top of the league u20's don't some of them deserve a chance when the team is doing so poorly?
Now it was great to get to Wembley and win the GF and kudos to the club for that but again that team eventually showed it was capable of much better than the dross they produced at times last year and the same applys to this.
As for individual players everyone has their own views and again as a fans forum shock horror that's what we share and debate whether good ,bad or just "nantwiche"!!!
If you thunk they don't deserve criticism ,or performances debated from ALL concerned then i wouldn't stick around on here you'll be very dissapointed.

Thanks Brian, but it's not personal. I actually think you're a top bloke and would be happy to see you at a junior/assistant coaching level at the club. You know the game and you're the kind of guy who is an assett to the organisation.

I think Brian should pick me in the Centres. I'm almost back to full fitness and I can out run Sam Tomkins and run through Jeff Lima!

You obviously think he's an idiot then. That's not very nice

Well said Rhinoms.... I would vote for you as Southstander spokes person. Always optimistic and a damn good supporter, but not afraid to give constructive criticism when due.

Blind faith is no good for anybody Brian.

I'm still a Powerhouse Centre with a Bald Swede!

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the replies.

Rhinoms - I totally agree with you, some of the performances are seriously poor and so I do think we have the right to be critical TO A POINT. If you take the most recent games we've played against Saints, Wigan and Warrington I'm not sure you're being entirely fair there - we had a really good first half against Saints at home, and at Warrington, while the first 30 minutes was really disappointing, I thought we defended really well in the last 50, doing some really good things and showing a bit more what we can do. Wigan was a thoroughly miserable performance but I thought the first 10 minutes really took it out of us and it was our lack of composure which ultimately left the remaining 70 looking desperate.

Regarding your comments on Kevin Sinfield, I've watched the game back on Sky over the last couple of days and the guy is absolutely everywhere; to be honest, with what I understand of his mentality, I think he's maybe trying too hard to make up for other people's mistakes, and the fact is, that's going to catch up with him. He shouldn't be defending out wide but we don't know if that's Mac, Sinny, or other players moving out of position. If I'm being honest, I'm hoping like hell he doesn't get picked for the Exiles game so he can have a bit of a rest!

Mac offered us a fair explanation of why he didn't use Lunt off the bench against Saints and while I must admit, I would use all of my subs, I thought his explanation was fair. In terms of the forwards looking tired, I would just point out that sometimes it does take a player a few minutes to really get into "game mode"; each player is different, and this is something else Mac has to take into consideration.

I also agree with you that some of the under 20s maybe do deserve a go while we're not playing well, but this isn't a simple thing to decide either. As you'll know, Superleague is so much more intense and physical than playing in the 20s, even when we're playing a side such as Wakefield next week, and some of the 20s guys won't yet be mature enough to cope with that. I strongly believe that to give these guys the best chance, unless we have an injury problem, we have to time their debut and subsequent games right so that we can keep their confidence up and not have them simply get battered! I also have to think about some of the first-team guys who are confidence players - they might not be playing well now, but come the play-offs, we might need their experience and skill; if they get dropped for an under-20s player and their confidence becomes shot, we may just be shooting ourselves in the foot.

Again, I'm certainly not suggesting that no-one deserves criticism and I don't think I suggest that at any point in my original post. I just think that any criticism is mis-directed and I really disagree with those who boo, heckle and name call our coach.

Do you think a coach should see webbs indiscipline and sort it?
Or hardakers unsuitability on the left?
Or the lack of aggression in the pack?
Or the fact we miss a controlling hooker?

Every week its the same old problems with nothing solved. Dont you think a quality coach would have sorted this by now?

Yes

In other news, the side coached by the much vaunted Nathan Brown recently lost to the likes of Widnes and HKR as the Giants suffer their annual mid-season slump. Don't you think a quality coach would have sorted that out by now?

Some people expect too much of the coach. The difference with last year is that Mac has shown he can deliver, and for me, this means that he deserves a bit more respect from the fans. I'm not saying he'll give us a repeat of last autumn and that there aren't problems that need to be addressed urgently. We are way behind the top clubs at present. But the situation isn't as dire as many on here would have you believe - a few wins against the usual SL cannon fodder will see both league position and confidence restored in the coming weeks IMO. Who knows what will happen if the players can regain some confidence and hit form again?

Hi Tad Rhino,

I have no problem with Brent Webb playing for us week in week out - I think it's the right thing for him to leave at the end of the year, but the guys been a legend for us over the years and still creates some really good tries (14 assists this year in 14 appearances). His defence is not what it used to be, but surely the indiscipline you refer to gives us a bit of the aggression you think we lack in the pack? For me, the tries he makes and his ability to direct the backs is what keeps him in the team; he and JP have conceded the same number of penalties this year, but I don't think anyone's going to suggest sorting out JP!

As I say in my first post, Zak Hardaker played really well for us at the back end of last year and was rightly given the number 4 shirt. Can you tell me exactly what it is you think needs sorting and how you would go about it? With the injuries we've had, we can't drop him for an instant fix, and in my experience there's no magic solution to learning technique at this level - it comes with practise over time.

In terms of aggression in the pack, Jamie Peacock and Kylie Leuluai rarely back down, and Richard Moore and Darrell Griffin were brought in in the off season to add some aggression. Moore is living up to this and I think Griffin will get there in time (we all saw his legal challenge on Harrison in the last minute of Friday's game). Bailey has been playing well, so what more exactly would you like to see?

Finally, how do you replace a player like Danny Buderus?! We were always going to experience a transition after he left, do you not think Burrow does a good job?

Again, I think I've addressed your point about the same problems in my original post, and still think Mac is a quality coach.

What confidence do the reigning SL and World Club Champions acquire from beating Wakefield that they couldn't get from beating Manly?

You let the mask slip there, Brian.

Burrow is a half back. He plays like a Union scrum half - not a league hooker. We had two good young hookers - one of which we gave a long term contract to and played in the biggest game of the year against Manly (where he planily did the business). We now have neither of them at the club, but instead we're loaning in an unwanted Hudds 9.

Hookers are aggresive, strong and key defenders in and around the ruck area, who can dominate in the tackle and take punishment.

This is how it looks to those of us outside the bubble Brian.

I have been critical of McDermott of late but i agree it should never get personal to the man and i have never nor willl i ever boo any coach or player of Leeds. However criticism of McDermott's performance as coach i think is justified, fans have seen enough rugby over the years to be able to see how bad we are structurely in defence & attack. The defeat against Wigan highlighted just how big a gulf their is and i don't just mean the scoreline but in what we need to be doing as a team and what we are currently doing.

DHM - thanks for the definition of a hooker. I agree, they should be strong and key defenders, but I wouldn't have classed Buderus as aggressive. McShane may have done OK against Manly but he's been found out on plenty of other occassions, so I have no problem with him being loaned out. I think we would be wrong to be playing Liam Hood every week immediately, countless players have come through too soon in our and other teams and been ruined; loaning him out to a Championship side will allow him to get used to playing against men, and give him some great experience so that hopefully, next season, he can play every week.

ThePrinter - thank you for your reply. I would agree that the game against Wigan was disappointing but we had a superb performance against Manly, along with good performances against Warrington at home, Salford away, London at home, and Catalans at home, so I think we've shown what we can do, we just need to bring some consistency back.

Hopefully, no player that plays at senior level has to be coached to respect the ball, and my response to this would focus less on the coach and again, more on the players. Our first team players know what they can and should be doing week in, week out, and I think for some of them, this rut we are in is making them desperate. Many of the knock-ons aren't coming from loose passes but simply from carrying the ball; I don't think this is due to lack of respect for the ball, I think this is due to desperation. We've all seen players fluff try opportunities because they can see it being scored before they've done the work, and I think that's what we're seeing every week. Stevie Ward was brilliant on Friday and he had the same coaching last week as everyone else, but made far fewer mistakes; again, I think this is because there's no pressure on him as a new, young player. While I think desire is an issue for one or two of the lads, we can't doubt it in the ever-reliables and I think it's this desire which is causing the desperation. I stand by my point on silly penalties but would say that most of the players who give these away, also do a lot of other, good things, so it's not as simple as just dropping them.

RE your notes on individual players, obviously we all see different things and I would agree that BJB was poor on Friday, but he still has that potential to do good things, as does Zak. I can't help but think judgements are being made on these two, particularly Zak, too quickly - this is only his first full season after all! I agree Delaney looks tired but again, with injuries and the way the fixture list has worked out, I can't see how we could reasonably afford to give him a rest. I don't agree that we haven't had many games where we could say 1-17 won it for us - in 2011 we showed great team effort at Cas away, Catalans at home, Cas at home, Wakey at home, and right through the play-offs. This year, we've had Manly, Salford away, London at home, Catalan at home and Leigh away (not sure that really counts!). I think that any team, under any coach, only has a handful of games at most per season where 1-17 can put their hands up and say they all played pretty well.

I agree it would be great to see a couple of young players tested in this second half of the season, and agree with your choices! Like I said in a different post though, it's important not to play these younger guys too much so quickly because ultimately, it will wear them out mentally and physically. I'm not sure what else you can expect Mac to say - obviously he's disappointed when we lose and has to acknowledge that we're not reaching our potential, so what else can he say?

Brian,

Will you be allowing Keith Senior to get a few games this season?

I would say, give it a go!

Sorry rhinowinorlose but I have a very sort attention span and your posts are far too long.

Is there an abridged version?

To be fair their has been plenty of criticism on here of players too not just the coach, sometimes even more so. The consistancy thing is the key thing, i've said before that i think this team can still produce at times and wouldn't at all surprise me if somehow we beat Wigan in CC and/or go on another Grand Final run but at the moment that feels like a toss of a coin whether or not we click for those games. I don't agree with people who think we are saving ourselves for later and with the exception of the 2nd half vs Wigan i don't think its been down to a lack of effort, i merely included that idea previously because its the few of some others.

What is worrying me is that we aren't seeing anything that suggests next year we might end up any better than around 5th/6th again and again relaying on things clicking come playof time. Eventually we will fail and a 5th-8th league finish with early playoff exit isn't good enough and come to think of it even if we do win, whilst great, it will become tiresome suffering 16-wins 11-losses records throughout the season with a couple of heavy defeats to big teams. I would like to see us challenging for around top 3 at least which means a record of around 20-wins 7-losses. (i except you can't win every game).

I think what people can see is that players aren't playing to their potential, even are better players could probably still improve. And again whilst i realise players can't be at the top of their game every week, their are too many, too often, too far away from their best. People will obviously look towards McDermott as coach as he should deem this unacceptable but it kind of looks like he's either accepting it or just doesn't know what to do to change this, neither make him look great tbh. And as we've agreed we don't think its a lack of effort being applied then its a quality issue and as we know these players do have the quality at times so its up to McDermott to make sure it comes out more often if the players efforts are there which they are IMO.

Brian McDermott's record as a 1st Grade SL head-coach:

*2006 - 7th
2007 - 9th - 23 pts
2008 - 9th - 22 pts
2009 - 11th - 22 pts
2010 - 13th - 14 pts

*McDermott took over from Tony Rea for Round 20 of 2006 and took the Harlequins from a then 9th to finish the Regular Rounds 7th.

Leeds had finished 2010 under McClennan in 4th - 35 pts

2011 - 5th - 31 pts
2012 - ?

There appears to be a pattern forming. I wonder if the Leeds CEO can make it out yet?

A Decline would be the Logical Pattern TVOC.

Wait till Rhinos Feckkwitt (Keith Swiftcorn) joins this discussion....!!