It seems that our beloved government have had to do a major climb down over the Pasty and Caravan taxes. www.itv.com/news/2012-05-28/past ... n-vat-tax/ As some have already said it is a very convenient time to do it too what with parlament being in recess. All this after 'Call me Dave' stood up and started shouting about how unfair the difference between VAT on Static and Tourer caravans was. It's all rather embarrasing but just not as embarrasing as the defeat they faced if the VAT on caravans had actually gone to a vote. What an utter shambles.

It seems that our beloved government have had to do a major climb down over the Pasty and Caravan taxes. www.itv.com/news/2012-05-28/past ... n-vat-tax/ As some have already said it is a very convenient time to do it too what with parlament being in recess. All this after 'Call me Dave' stood up and started shouting about how unfair the difference between VAT on Static and Tourer caravans was. It's all rather embarrasing but just not as embarrasing as the defeat they faced if the VAT on caravans had actually gone to a vote. What an utter shambles.

No U-turn of the 50p tax rate though.

Typically, they can find £375,000 of public money to fund a "research project" to [url=http://www.independent.co.uk/environment/nature/richard-benyon-the-birdbrained-minister-7794159.htmlrelocate and destroy the nests of buzzards[/url (a protected species) because 76% of gamekeepers "believe" that buzzards have a harmful effect on gamebirds. So no detailed scientific or statistical evidence, just some people "believing" a problem exists.

All this comes from the desk of Richard Benyon, who also moonlights as Fisheries Minister, the same Richard Benyon who [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/quiz/2011/jan/11/sea-fish-quizonly managed to identify two of the fish he claimed to protect[/url. He also happens to be a millionaire landowner with a 20,000 acre estate in Berkshire and enjoys the odd bit of shooting, along with his boss and cabinet colleagues.

As much as I despise Thatcher and her policies, at least you knew what you were in for and apart from the Poll Tax, she saw through pretty much all she proposed. Cameron will spin this latest U-turn as "we are listening", the LimpDems will claim glory for forcing a change in policy and all the while people will still have to live with very real downshifting in their finances and welfare.

[url=http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-18240753And another[/url

I do hope someone is keeping count of all these u-turns and better still, adding up the cost of not thinking things through in the first place.

We've surely never had a more shambolic bunch of misfits in charge of the country?

I love this phrase "U-turn"

What's wrong with admitting your original decision was wrong, and amending accordingly? Why does everyone's first judgement have to be the correct one?

Because it's evidence of shambolic thinking when a proposal is announced before any sort of process management has taken place. Why were there no dissenting voices prior to these announcements being made? It suggests a climate of fear and a real dislike of anyone who doesn't toe the party line.

On the pasty tax and caravan VAT, they'd already had a vote in parliament and both proposals passed in the Finance Bill, with few, if any dissenters from the coalition benches.

Basically it's pi[is[/is-poor policy making "on the hoof"

"U-turn if you like, the lady's not for turning"

Ask the speaker of those words about admitting you're wrong and amending accordingly.

I have no problem with a "u-turn", but as others have said, a better thought out policy in the first place, that avoids having to do a u-turn, would surely be better in the long run.

Because it displays the incompetence of the government in making the original decision. If they didn't care or where prepared to accept what the decision would do to bakeries/caravanners etc then ok, I or anyone might disagree about whether it's worth it but at least the government would know what they were doing. By doing a U-turn it merely proves that they made the decision without either knowing or thinking about what the effects of the policy would be. For highly paid people in any job that's unacceptable. For a government who's had months to get things in order for the Budget, it's inexcusable.

Because it is symptomatic of this governments incompetence.

It's not the first U turn is it and the idea they made these U turns because they listened and so this is a positive thing is well wide of the mark. It is simply down to policy making on the hoof and not thinking it through.

Remember the climb down over the forest sell-off? They are in the process of watering down the withdrawal of child benefit.

All these policies including the pasty tax and VAT on static caravans were put forward because the government had decided that they need the revenue but when the ink is dry on the legislation and people start having a look about how to implement the policy or what the effects will really be they unravel. That is incompetence because they should have thought these things through in the first place.

The pasty tax was unworkable because the idea was to levy VAT on products sold "above ambient temperature". So do you charge VAT on a pasty or sausage roll that was cooked and has gone cold or not? That is why it has been thrown out. It was unworkable. Not to be kind to Cornwall. The fact they didn't see this shows how little thought went into it which begs the question if they can't get that simple thing right what are we in store for when the things they won't change despite far greater warnings of disaster such as the NHS reforms go through?

Labour never changed any of their plans, did they?

They admit they did but no one could point out to anything like the scale or scope of u-turns this lot have performed in two years

Bugger me, here's another one

[url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/may/29/ministers-rethink-charity-tax-relief?CMP=twt_guGovernment "re-thinking" charity tax relief[/url

No wonder Gideon has decided not to attend Leveson in person, Jay would have him screaming for "Nanny" within an hour

Both the Pasty and caravan taxes are strange ones.

As someone has already said with regard to the pasty tax how the hell did they expect to police it?
It was clearly a stupid idea right from the off.

As for the caravan tax the guys in the back admitted early on that there was going to be a hell if a lot of job loses over it and that there would be very little gain when taking everything into account.
Yet the idiots decided that what the country needed was less folks in employment for almost no reason.
They then no doubt wondered why it was so unpopular.

A shame they show no signs o0f doing the same on the NHS – opposed by a substantial majority of the people who actually work in the health service.

Although, of course, that might mean them personally losing money.

I am sure they did but I don't recall them having to do so because of sheer incompetence. The fact the pasty tax made it to into the budget before they realised they could not enforce it is a striking bit of stupidity but it is also symptomatic of this governments policy making.

I said ages ago this was a government of unintended consequences (being kind and not assuming they were deliberately trying to wreck the country....) and my God they prove me right on regular basis. They are idiots.

Where we are, and tbf Blair pioneered it, is the era of spin doctors and private briefings, coupled with partial decision makers who directly stand to gain from their decisions.(basically, corruption).

Whilst Blair pioneered it, at least he had some high calibre people such as Campbell who were good at it, but in essence he realised that in fact, you don't have to listen, you don't have to consult, you can easily get away without any real consultation, as long as you spin and dress it right;

He further realised that even when caught out, there is still a place for spin doctors, as insteqad of accepting any blame or criticism at all, you can basically ride out the storm, as critically the penny dropped with him and Campbell & Co. that a media storm is just that - within days, if you ride it out, it's gone, and you've got away with whatever it was. Literally.

The more they did this, the more incredulous they became as to just how easy it was to get away with it. Even to the extent that if a senior man did something utterly terrible, then you could even get away with that by pretending to "sack" him, with a quiet word in his ear that he'd be back in around 3 - 6 months when nobody would care any more. And so it went on, until they believed that they could actually do whatever they liked with impunity. And they could. WMD being just one example.

What the Con-Libs have done is adopt the same style, but really pushed the envelope with speed of change, zero meaningful consultation, and pre-determined outcomes (hence you get Government policy which turns out to be a cut and paste from a written submission, complete with spelling mistakes, just for example).

At least with Labour, you had a reasonable number of bright people coming up with the stuff, so while the democratic process was being castrated, the end product was at least often reasonably well thought through. But with this shower of shoite, they seem to be filled to the gunwales with fools, incompetents and generally people of low ability, and so they can't see what would have been obvious snags and loopholes to a drafter with half a brain. So you have the perfect storm of policy being imposed without consultation which would at least point to many of the imminent problems, whilst being written by people whose brainpower is, simply, nowhere near up to the job.

And so ingrained has the arrogance become that they even try to spin out of the holes they create. Like trying to spin out of the pasty tax farrago, implying they are just 'listening' when it was not up for consultation, but a nailed-down plank in a fookin Budget, ffs.


Oh and of course releasing the U-turn on a "good day to bury bad news", another trick straight from New labour's portfolio. Spin, spin and more spin. Lies. Deceit. And all totally straight-faced.

Not entirely true. Bernard Ingham was a spin doctor for Margaret Thatcher. It could be argued that Blair & Co simply built on that. And there is an argument that the majority of the media was/is so incapable of representing politics in a reasoned manner that he had little choice but to do this.

I don't think spin has got anything to do with it. They didn't try and spin numerous policies that have backfired. They may have tried to justify policies as all governments do but the problem is they have simply come up with host of simply ill thought out policies. For example everyone told them if they allowed Uni's to charge £9K a year fees then virtually all of them would do so. And they did with none that I know of charging £6K. They were told this would happen but the policy went ahead. Did they know this would the case themselves? I don't know but the policy as presented was not supposed to result in £9K fees or as near as makes no difference all round. The forest sell off was the same. Lots of loopholes which were pointed out as soon as the legislation was published. Same with the pasty tax which was unworkable. It is not spin that is the issue but that clearly stupid policies make it as far as they do without the government and its civil servants spotting such obvious problems.

I find it hard to believe the government would have been well aware the pasty tax was unenforceable for example and yet went as far as putting in the budget only to have to withdraw it and I see no link with spin when they dreamt the idea up. Just incompetence.

They may try and pass off the U turn as the result of a listening exercise when it patently isn't for the reason you say but that is just par for the course.

The problem lies with the polices not the presentation.

Largely agree, but one man's justification is another man's spin, and the problem also lies with the presentation, in large part because of the sheer pretence of meaningful consultation, spun as such when in truth it is nothing of the sort.

Major examples of current spin surround the concerted campaigns to wreck the NHS, wreck legal aid and wreck the civil justice system, all of which are of course perfect examples of simply ill thought out policies as well as incompetence.

i'd guess though that the prime current example of spin married to incompetence and ill-considered policy is the economy.

The pasty tax U-turn is hilariously incompetent.
As I understand it, the rule will now be that if it is kept warm on a heated tray it'll be subject to 20% VAT but if it just happens to be warm because it's just come out of the oven or whatever, it won't.
Does this mean that fish and chips, if straight from the pan, won't attract VAT now?

No, because it's a food that is meant to be eaten hot.

Like a roast chicken off a spit. Buy one of them and you pay VAT. Oh, hang on, unless the supermarket puts it in a bag and leaves it there, in which case if you happen to pick the bag up and buy the chicken while it's still piping hot, you still don't pay the VAT.

I hope that's cleared it up.

Someone must've heard me:

[url=http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/governments-32-u-turns-in-two-years-853386#.T8W1AVyi3Zc.twitter32 policy reversals in two years[/url

That's an average of one every three weeks

So which way are they pointing now?

This is the caring, sharing, listening 'we are all in it together' party you know.

Scooter Nik's political premonition of the day:


In about two years time, when the elections start coming round again, and we've still got this massive budget deficit and are still in recession, the Conservatives will turn round an point at these abandonments of Treasury policy, and will blame the public not willing to pay their taxes for the state of affairs.

Nothing in politics is done without an ulterior motive.

Victor Chandler offering 15/2 on Cameron not being PM by Christmas Day 2012


[i5m Victor Chandler Victor Chandler ‏@VictorChandler

@johnprescott Not a massive price John but 15/2 for Cameron not to be PM on 25/12/2012
Retweeted by John Prescott
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