Quote ="wrencat1873"Are you being deliberately shy with facts or, just putting your spin on certain issues. Average shipping time from USA would be 3 weeks (slightly less from the East Side). Aldi and Lidl's success is in stocking a limited range of products, topped up with "seasonal specials", which massively reduces their overheads, allowing them to be "more competitive" than such as Sainsbury or Tesco. Trading with the EU makes sense due to its geographic location, which is only needed for short shelf life and quick turnaround product. The UK spends huge amounts in China and India, taking advantage of their extremely cheap labour (around $50/ month in China for factory workers) and less in parts of Asia. There are trading opportunities in Africa but, many of these are not new, the company I worked for previously exported all over the world and imported from India, China, Zimbabwe (until their currency exploded), along with most of the major European countries. We exported into Kenya, Uganda, Australia, Scandinavia, Canada etc and many European countries, which has become far, far easier over the last 30+ years. There will always be new opportunities but, there certainly isnt a huge untapped source in some new unknown nation to either buy from or sell to. Africa will be the next new "cheap" supply option but, this will be available for EU nations to "take advantage of" and not reserved for those on the outside. If all else was equal, why would anyone want to buy from the US instead of The EU, it doesnt make sense. Just more fantasy island stuff www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... -lower-av/ $20 per hour average compared to the UK £14 (with plenty on the minimum wage) I know its difficult but, let's have some serious facts rather than crossed fingers.'" Are you struggling with reading or are you being deliberately obtuse? I never mentioned selling product anywhere - I only suggested alternatives to EU sourced products. I used Aldi/Lidl as an example of where consumers are more than willing to accept a cheaper alternative i.e. create demand through pricing product attractively. What do you think is going to happen if EU product increases in price - demand will drop off as consumers seek out cheaper options. What do you think the EU producers response will be to falling demand - do nothing or reduce their prices? I appreciate the blindingly obvious is difficult when your views are so entrenched but this will be the reality - consumers aren't lemmings they will react negatively to increased costs as Aldi/Lidl's competitors have discovered.

Quote ="wrencat1873"Are you being deliberately shy with facts or, just putting your spin on certain issues. Average shipping time from USA would be 3 weeks (slightly less from the East Side). Aldi and Lidl's success is in stocking a limited range of products, topped up with "seasonal specials", which massively reduces their overheads, allowing them to be "more competitive" than such as Sainsbury or Tesco. Trading with the EU makes sense due to its geographic location, which is only needed for short shelf life and quick turnaround product. The UK spends huge amounts in China and India, taking advantage of their extremely cheap labour (around $50/ month in China for factory workers) and less in parts of Asia. There are trading opportunities in Africa but, many of these are not new, the company I worked for previously exported all over the world and imported from India, China, Zimbabwe (until their currency exploded), along with most of the major European countries. We exported into Kenya, Uganda, Australia, Scandinavia, Canada etc and many European countries, which has become far, far easier over the last 30+ years. There will always be new opportunities but, there certainly isnt a huge untapped source in some new unknown nation to either buy from or sell to. Africa will be the next new "cheap" supply option but, this will be available for EU nations to "take advantage of" and not reserved for those on the outside. If all else was equal, why would anyone want to buy from the US instead of The EU, it doesnt make sense. Just more fantasy island stuff www.politifact.com/punditfact/st ... -lower-av/ $20 per hour average compared to the UK £14 (with plenty on the minimum wage) I know its difficult but, let's have some serious facts rather than crossed fingers.'" Are you struggling with reading or are you being deliberately obtuse? I never mentioned selling product anywhere - I only suggested alternatives to EU sourced products. I used Aldi/Lidl as an example of where consumers are more than willing to accept a cheaper alternative i.e. create demand through pricing product attractively. What do you think is going to happen if EU product increases in price - demand will drop off as consumers seek out cheaper options. What do you think the EU producers response will be to falling demand - do nothing or reduce their prices? I appreciate the blindingly obvious is difficult when your views are so entrenched but this will be the reality - consumers aren't lemmings they will react negatively to increased costs as Aldi/Lidl's competitors have discovered.

Unlike the belief of rabid right wing ideologues, we don't live in a perfect market. The EU has a huge structural advantage because they are near so we can get products quickly and, in a lot of cases, because they have the skills to produce goods to a higher standard than elsewhere. For a lot of markets that combination is critical and whilst the latter can be overcome by competitors the former simply cannot.

Since many or even most UK-produced goods rely on at least some raw materials which are imported the EU is the natural place to source them from. Most businesses simply can't wait for things to arrive by sea from China and can't cope with the cost of airfreighting them.

This discussion is an attempt, without much success, to shoehorn ideological beliefs to match the unfortunate facts of international trade.

I think you are correct the ideology that nothing will change except cost is flawed - humans are pretty imaginative and adaptable and have shown this over the ages. It is just a myth put forward by remainers such as you with no evidence to support that theory.

It would be difficult to see how raw material can be more expensive than the impact of the falling pound have been on imports - yet businesses have still continued producing and inflation has got out of hand. Its just doom-mongering from a bitter set of left-leaning individuals like yourself who think they know better than everyone else and who'se view of democracy is that it is OK as long as the vote goes their way.

Trading: the action or activity of BUYING and goods and services.

Regarding the EU competing for their market share, of course they will, which, apart from their geographic proximity to the UK, is the main reason for our trade.

As for entrenched views, I think that you are wrong.

The "Leave" vote was for 2 or 3 main reasons, Immigration being top of the list.
Personally I would put the coutry's prosperity above immigration, I dont think this is an "entrenched" view, more common sense, although I do accept that "free movement" was getting out of control.
However, on immigration, we still come back to the "controlled" immigration (from outside the EU) was pretty much equal to the numbers coming from The EU, making a mockery of the immigration argument

The "entrenched" views seem to be mainly from the right wing brigade, desperate to "take control", regardless of the effect that this will have on the rest of us.

Apart from the absolute spewed out during the referendum, we are still waiting to hear what REAL benefits there will be, when we retreat to our small politically fractured island and the silence has been deafening.
Just would, could, might and maybe. As I said crossed fingers and blind faith, not a sensible plan or strategy among any of you and certainly not from our esteemed government.

Are we heading for a no deal ?

So much talk about the need to speed things up and The Cabinet still not in agreement (which is unbelievable).
A no deal would allow The Tories (and everyone else) to blame those nasty EU negotiators and appease the Brexitiers who are just desperate to leave (regardless of the cost ).

It's quite staggering that "we" still haven't got a plan than is close to being acceptable.
Mrs May still with her fingers crossed and putting party before country, shame on her.

The EU only agree ever agree things at the last minute when the pressure is on. Government should just carry on doing nothing until the EU blinks at the prospect of a do ca.led 'no deal.' Fractures are developing on the 27 and will become huge if we hold our nerve.

I know that the EU are finally doing something about mass migration (although this is already at far lower levels than a few years ago) but the The Cabinet is far more fractured than the other EU members and which ever direction Mrs May chooses to lean will destroy her own government, which probably explains why she wont commit us to anything.

We just need Noel Edmonds to sort a Deal or No Deal, Mr Blobby already sat on the opposition bench

I've been reading Tony Benn's diaries from 2001 to 2007. I'm not much of a Benn fan, but he covers the Tory leadership election in 2005 and describes Cameron as "shallow" and by god he was right. The useless Cameron knew that the anti EU press had been poisoning public opinion drop by drop over 25 years. He comes to power, and introduces swingeingly unnecessary austerity. He then goes to the country saying he would get better terms from the EU and put it to a referendum, in order to buy the silence of the loonies in his party. They remained silent ok, because they knew there were no better terms available. We had the best deal of any of the EU members. So he comes back empty handed, and still holds the referendum, which of course he loses. It should be obvious why he lost. The places that voted in large number for leave were the very places that have been hardest his by his government's policies. He resigns and the even more spineless Theresa is elected. Meanwhile back at the ranch Labour elect a leader who hasn't a clue what to do about Brexit.
So what's the answer kiddies? Another vote is the answer, because this is too big for a simple majority. Corbyn should get his act together and assemble the majority in parliament that exists for this course of action. Obviously Dominic Grieve was lacking in the cojones to go all the way.
Unless we step back from the brink the ordinary every day people of this country are going to suffer a horrendous ten years. Does anyone in their right mind think the likes of Aaron Banks, or James Dyson, or Rupert Murdoch, or William Rees Mogg or Nigel Lawson have the interests of the British worker at heart?

It's going to be interesting. Can't kick the can any further down the road now.

it seems to be lost in the long grass!

David Davies (Brexit Secretary) resigned, Tories in utter disarray, what chance of a deal now ??
I'm not sure that we have ever seen such inept leadership in government and certainly not on such an important issue.

Our @friends@ in the EU mist be absolutely ing themselves at just how poor we are.

The government started with no plan for Brexit and just a few months short of the big day, they are getting more and more disjointed.

they didn't think they needed a plan, all sane people wanted to remain, only the racist over 60's voted leave.

I agree, it is an utter shambles and May has proven she couldn't lead a dog, let alone a country.

I wonder how much Chequers would bring on the open market, because it's of zero value to the country.

I have, for a long time, been a conservative, but now I just think all politics is the preserve of self serving individuals.

UK politics is in a real mess. There is a golden opportunity for someone to step forward and make themselves the hero, but as you said, the self-serving attitude within will be weighing up the potential losses of this undertaking. They may single-handedly save the country, but on the other hand they may lose their personal perks. It's a tough one.

We need a peaceful equivalent of Guido Fawkes, kick them all out and get REAL people into power, but it will never happen, tbe system is corrupt, has been for centuries.

Just a casual observation from someone watching far away...unbiased.
The thing has been totally mismanaged with no though out constructive plan....is tuning into a complete ___ up...time to hit the pause button and reassess....
Is a total mess already....

You can't negotiate with the EU when you're still negotiating with your own party.

She'll either try and ignore the Brexiters and press on with Norway-lite if the EU go along with it or she'll get forced out and then we could end up with anything.

So, the Cabinet all toddle along to Chequers where the Maybot say's "back my new plan or you're out on your ear". They all then scamper home & whine & moan followed by Davies's resignation!

What a spineless bunch of illegitimate's they are.

So now we have a watered down membership option or a Dickensian utopia - brilliant, congratulations to Cameron right down to the knuckle-draggers who believed the hype.

Davis has done the first useful thing he's ever managed, by being May's Geoffrey Howe - she'll be gone within a week. God knows what we'll be left with - probably one of Johnson, Gove or Rees-Mogg - but all of that requires time on manoeuvres, which is yet more time they're not negotiating with the EU.

It's an absolute cluster - a group of self-serving old Etonians have savaged democracy, divided the country and undermined the economy, all for the sake of their interminable one-upping of each other; but I guess it's all jolly-japes when the outcome has no bearing on your personally. It's a total embarrassment - and if any tory supporting Brexiteer fancies attempting to polish this particular turd, best of luck with that.

a bit like paying the bills but not living in the house, like a normal divorce!

pathetic, on all sides

It won't be Johnson.

Now Boris gone. Making his move. The day of the long knives.

Exactly - and the first to do so; there'll be more to follow.

Davis went first, but you've never been good at accurate...

I mean the first one with leadership ambitions, smart; nobody in their right mind would see Davis as a potential PM.