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| Quote ="Exiled down south"https://www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/populationandmigration/populationestimates/articles/overviewoftheukpopulation/mar2017/previous/v1
Do you accept that the ?? 3 million plus EU migrants have contributed to the significant increase in the population and this is a contributing note contributing factor to stretched NHS, schools, doctors etc'"
How much of a contributing factor? Is it a big number?
I would expect most immigrants to be of an age where they present the least burden to the NHS.
The ageing population - i.e. that which places most burden on the NHS will be predominantly British non immigrant.
IMO the biggest contributory factor on stretched public services are domestic policies of "austerity".
How many of those immigrants work in public services? |
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| Quote ="Bullseye"How much of a contributing factor? Is it a big number?
I would expect most immigrants to be of an age where they present the least burden to the NHS.
The ageing population - i.e. that which places most burden on the NHS will be predominantly British non immigrant.
IMO the biggest contributory factor on stretched public services are domestic policies of "austerity".
How many of those immigrants work in public services?'"
As Bren2k posted earlier, the Tories and their press have been very, very, successful at planting the seed of "immigrants being to blame" for the NHS being overstretched.
Baring in mind that the most expensive patients are the over 65 (£6,000 p/a) and the over 80's at (£8,000 p/a) but, "everybody" believes "them" all to be health tourists. 
How, when ALL public services have been slashed, can the Tories still manage to sell a lie, it's quite incredible, anyone would think that they had friends in the media  and an impotent opposition  . |
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| Quote ="wrencat1873"Baring in mind that the most expensive patients are the over 65 (£6,000 p/a) and the over 80's at (£8,000 p/a) but, "everybody" believes "them" all to be health tourists.
'"
Furthermore - the single biggest cost to the benefit bill is pensions; certainly not immigrants, or even fraudsters, or scroungers with 16 kids and two council houses knocked together. Despite that, the narrative around benefits is always disproportionately skewed, to the point where a whole new genre of 'benefit porn' reportage has been spawned, dutifully trotted out by the Daily Fail and it's lower rent counterparts - and somewhat incongruously, Channel 4.
The Tories have a long history of dividing the working classes in order to conquer them - and they've done it with stunning success to embed the idea of 'austerity' as a requirement; whilst quietly overseeing a £555 billion increase in government debt since 2010. |
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Potentially brexit could be a disaster, certainly it can't be resolved in a two year time slot. The one piece of good news I read today was an idea that until trade agreements are reached ,we would work on a zero tariff trade basis. This may take up to ten years but probably gets everybody off the hook. Also a lot can very obviously happen over ten years.
I would think whatever the outcome we will have to make some financial contributions. It's highly unlikely we will get any decent deals without some kind of payment.
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Thing is it's all so unnecessary. With all the problems in public services, housing etc Brexit is likely to be as welcome and as distracting as a fart in a space suit.
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| Quote ="Bullseye"Thing is it's all so unnecessary. With all the problems in public services, housing etc Brexit is likely to be as welcome and as distracting as a fart in a space suit.'"
Harsh but true. |
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| Quote ="Bullseye"How much of a contributing factor? Is it a big number?
I would expect most immigrants to be of an age where they present the least burden to the NHS.
The ageing population - i.e. that which places most burden on the NHS will be predominantly British non immigrant.
IMO the biggest contributory factor on stretched public services are domestic policies of "austerity".
How many of those immigrants work in public services?'"
Nothing to do with our enormous national debt then? |
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| Quote ="Dally"Nothing to do with our enormous national debt then?'"
Which as I've already pointed out, is even more enormous after 7 years of Tory rule than it was to begin with; so they've increased the national debt by £555bn, but continued to massively defund the NHS - because it's a deliberate, ideological strategy to privatise, and nothing at all to do with 'reducing the deficit.' And immigration is a red herring of epic proportions - the biggest impact immigrants have on health and social care, is to staff it. |
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Thanks bren2k, summed up perfectly.
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| Quote ="Bullseye"How much of a contributing factor? Is it a big number?
I would expect most immigrants to be of an age where they present the least burden to the NHS.
The ageing population - i.e. that which places most burden on the NHS will be predominantly British non immigrant.
IMO the biggest contributory factor on stretched public services are domestic policies of "austerity".
How many of those immigrants work in public services?'"
You should also consider that Britain produces more EU migrants than any other country within it.
Which means any reduction in immigration would be tempered by a reduction in emigration. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"Which as I've already pointed out, is even more enormous after 7 years of Tory rule than it was to begin with; so they've increased the national debt by £555bn, but continued to massively defund the NHS - because it's a deliberate, ideological strategy to privatise, and nothing at all to do with 'reducing the deficit.' And immigration is a red herring of epic proportions - the biggest impact immigrants have on health and social care, is to staff it.'"
Well the deficit has reduced but until it becomes a surplus (if ever) national debt will continue to rise as a result of there being a continuing budget deficit and interest payments to meet. |
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| Quote ="Dally"Well the deficit has reduced but until it becomes a surplus (if ever) national debt will continue to rise as a result of there being a continuing budget deficit and interest payments to meet.'"
And in pursuing a budget surplus, the government takes short term actions that have an adverse effect on economic growth, such as reducing government borrowing for infrastructure projects, spending cuts to public services and increasing taxes. The money to create a surplus has to come from somewhere in the economy - and thanks to Brexit, the UK economy is probably more fragile than at any time in the post-war era. Scary stuff. |
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Life has suddenly improved, who'd have thought it.
Mrs May is once again blowing hot air (this time in the direction of Europe) and the 27 member "states" are laughing back at her.
It should be a really interesting negotiation.
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Usual socialists want to spend,spend,spend. Gordon Brown sold out gold at the lowest point, Tony Bleurgh invaded Iraq and Afghanistan on false pretences. The NHS is bloated with managers, it's not underfunded, it's badly managed. Cosmetic surgery, gender reassignment, you name it. Thankfully Mrs May has started to turn us around.
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990" The NHS is bloated with managers, it's not underfunded, it's badly managed. Cosmetic surgery, gender reassignment, you name it. '"
Do you work in the NHS? I have for some time and know for a fact what you say is utter claptrap. |
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| Quote ="Bullseye"Do you work in the NHS? I have for some time and know for a fact what you say is utter claptrap.'"
In your opinion, the NHS needs dismantaling, too many staff, too many unwarranted prescriptions, pointless surgeries. Go for the US model, pay for the treatment you need, stop health tourism. |
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"In your opinion, the NHS needs dismantaling, too many staff, too many unwarranted prescriptions, pointless surgeries. Go for the US model, pay for the treatment you need, stop health tourism.'"
Yeah leave millions without healthcare, balls to em. If they can't pay tough. Back to the 1930s.
If you're poor it's because your idle. Should work harder. If you're ill it's all down to lifestyle choices so no sympathy.
Are we on the same page yet? |
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| Quote ="PCollinson1990"The NHS is bloated with managers, it's not underfunded, it's badly managed.'"
Simply untrue - the NHS, and Social Care, have suffered swingeing cuts since the inception of this god-awful austerity agenda; as have the police, fire service, schools, libraries, sports and leisure - you name it.
I work to the NHS and Social Services, and I'm involved on a voluntary basis in education - and I see no evidence of this bloatedness or poor management that you refer to; for sure there is always room for efficiency and streamlining, but that would be better designed and delivered by practitioners and experts - not government officials with cutting costs as their primary driver. |
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| Quote ="Bullseye"Yeah leave millions without healthcare, balls to em. If they can't pay tough. Back to the 1930s.
If you're poor it's because your idle. Should work harder. If you're ill it's all down to lifestyle choices so no sympathy.
Are we on the same page yet?'"
Not at all, basic health needs should be met. But not breast enlargements, gender change etc. Half our health care professionals can hardly speak English, Doctors getting hundreds of thousands of pounds but still working privately as well, the NHS is corrupt, drug companies making millions, if not billions. It's just my opinion. |
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I work in the education sector and am fairly savvy with the wage structure of the organisations I deal with. Six figure salaries are commonplace at the top, even near the top. Some of the lower ranking directors, VPs and even support staff are taking home the kind of money many can only dream of.
While I appreciate the cuts have been deep, this year's funding is the lowest he's ever seen according to one senior board member, the money going on wages is far from modest.
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Quote ="PCollinson1990"Not at all, basic health needs should be met. But not breast enlargements, gender change etc. Half our health care professionals can hardly speak English, Doctors getting hundreds of thousands of pounds but still working privately as well, the NHS is corrupt, drug companies making millions, if not billions. It's just my opinion.'"
What are "basic health needs"? Where do you draw the line?
"half of healthcare professionals can hardly speak English."
What rubbish. Provide me with proof of this twaddle.
Doctors deserve a decent salary. They don't grow on trees. Do you know how long it takes to qualify?
The NHS is corrupt? Proof please?
Drug companies make billions because they make the drugs. Who else would do it? It might be unfair and they may take the NHS for a ride but how do you solve it?
In my experience most of the problem is down to our own government re-organising things despite saying there would be no top down re-organisation.
You now have a system that is obsessed with "assurance" i.e. collecting data. I spend almost as much time writing reports on the work I've done than actually doing it. Staff are taken away from dealing with patients to do this stuff.
Cut the pen pushing and you free up time. Unfortunately this is only getting worse.
BTW none of this was caused by the EU and won't be helped by Brexit. It's a UK government issue.
By the way pay scales for NHS can be found here:
https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/ ... -pay-rates |
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Quote ="PCollinson1990"Not at all, basic health needs should be met. But not breast enlargements, gender change etc. Half our health care professionals can hardly speak English, Doctors getting hundreds of thousands of pounds but still working privately as well, the NHS is corrupt, drug companies making millions, if not billions. It's just my opinion.'"
What are "basic health needs"? Where do you draw the line?
"half of healthcare professionals can hardly speak English."
What rubbish. Provide me with proof of this twaddle.
Doctors deserve a decent salary. They don't grow on trees. Do you know how long it takes to qualify?
The NHS is corrupt? Proof please?
Drug companies make billions because they make the drugs. Who else would do it? It might be unfair and they may take the NHS for a ride but how do you solve it?
In my experience most of the problem is down to our own government re-organising things despite saying there would be no top down re-organisation.
You now have a system that is obsessed with "assurance" i.e. collecting data. I spend almost as much time writing reports on the work I've done than actually doing it. Staff are taken away from dealing with patients to do this stuff.
Cut the pen pushing and you free up time. Unfortunately this is only getting worse.
BTW none of this was caused by the EU and won't be helped by Brexit. It's a UK government issue.
By the way pay scales for NHS can be found here:
https://www.healthcareers.nhs.uk/about/ ... -pay-rates | |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"I work in the education sector and am fairly savvy with the wage structure of the organisations I deal with. Six figure salaries are commonplace at the top, even near the top. Some of the lower ranking directors, VPs and even support staff are taking home the kind of money many can only dream of.
While I appreciate the cuts have been deep, this year's funding is the lowest he's ever seen according to one senior board member, the money going on wages is far from modest.'"
I'm in a similar position - and for mine, the people who you refer to are a rare breed and few and far between; if they rocked up in the private sector with equivalent levels of skill and expertise, they'd command far more than the *relatively* modest salaries you describe.
It's really easy to use the one or two 6 figure salaried CEO or Exec Principal types to be outraged about - but these people are invariably NLE's and have responsibility for multi-million pound budgets, not to mention the welfare of thousands of kids. I'm more than comfortable with securing these experts in jobs where they are performing well - so it seems reasonable to me to pay them accordingly. They're the people who should be designing education strategy and delivery - instead of dickweeds like Michael Gove, who's got no expertise in education whatsoever, but has implemented sweeping changes to the education system in this country, few of which will have any direct benefit on the experience of kids attending the schools in question. |
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| Quote ="bren2k"I'm in a similar position - and for mine, the people who you refer to are a rare breed and few and far between; if they rocked up in the private sector with equivalent levels of skill and expertise, they'd command far more than the *relatively* modest salaries you describe.'"
While there are some employees who are worth their weight in gold, there are also plenty of these 'rare breeds' who if they rocked up in the private sector, they'd be lucky to be making the tea. They certainly wouldn't be in jobs paying anything near the 50k-90k bracket. They'd be laughed out of the interview.
At the very top you would hope they'd be worth the money. But as you come down through the 'layer cake' there are a hell of a lot of middle management types who get seconded from school to school then ultimately from trust to trust when each employer realises they're not doing very much for their 50k-90k a year.
In some trusts there can be around 10 layers of board members/execs/directors/management/various principals/heads of department, and that's before you even get to the teachers. |
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| Quote ="King Street Cat"While there are some employees who are worth their weight in gold, there are also plenty of these 'rare breeds' who if they rocked up in the private sector, they'd be lucky to be making the tea. They certainly wouldn't be in jobs paying anything near the 50k-90k bracket. They'd be laughed out of the interview.
At the very top you would hope they'd be worth the money. But as you come down through the 'layer cake' there are a hell of a lot of middle management types who get seconded from school to school then ultimately from trust to trust when each employer realises they're not doing very much for their 50k-90k a year.
In some trusts there can be around 10 layers of board members/execs/directors/management/various principals/heads of department, and that's before you even get to the teachers.'"
Then I'd get the hell out of dodge - because given the current situation around funding for schools, I fail to see how any Academy or Trust could survive with that kind of inefficiency - the money just isn't there. I'm the Chair of a MAT Board (non Exec, unpaid) and every member Academy's budget is pared down and lean - and the SLT are a really impressive bunch of people, who would flourish wherever they worked.
I take your point that there are some teachers who are the top of their scale and with various enhancements that they've accumulated over the years - but the whole Academy/MAT thing has been going long enough for all of those anomalies to have been addressed and in some cases, where they don't justify their own cost, managed out. |
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and an impotent opposition 
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