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| My patience has ran out.
Get your coat and ill ring a taxi.
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| AGREED, only Salford & London have scored less points in SL this season, to concede 72 is woeful, even though Widnes have nothing to play for (apart from pride)
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| Quote ="terrykelly"AGREED, only Salford & London have scored less points in SL this season, to concede 72 is woeful, even though Widnes have nothing to play for (apart from pride)'"
What pride was that? Gutless, pathetic, shambolic, disgraceful. Really feel for the few fans who went, but they should have known better. There've got to be big changes made and it's about time Mr O'Connor made some difficult but essential decisions.
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| Agree enough now I never rated Betts in the Championship either.Who available though as feel missed out on Noble and Powell.Second grade Aussie coach with ambition,Isteyn Harris or Ian millward.lol
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| He has had his chance and he just docent get enough out of the players as a team, time to go.
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| Dennis Betts didn't miss a single tackle. He didn't hide. he didn't bottle it either
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| Quote ="ghengis khan"Dennis Betts didn't miss a single tackle. He didn't hide. he didn't bottle it either'"
All boils down to the coach at the end of the day and it's up to him to have the team ready. Saying that I just think Widnes hit Hull on a high after reaching Wembley.
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| Quote ="ghengis khan"Dennis Betts didn't miss a single tackle. He didn't hide. he didn't bottle it either'"
Yes but he signs the players and get the best out of his players
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| Reality check 1: Hull are playing the best the have all season. They were tipped to challenge for silverware this year based on the squad they'd assembled but had a poor first half to the season with plenty of calls on their side for Gentle to go.
Reality check 2: After nearly 3 seasons under Denis Betts we're still not playing as well as we should be and still look out of our depth in SL for long periods in games.
I argued to let him have they run of the franchise, see how we build and then decide his fate based on the 3rd seasons performance in SL. Now two things have come to a head: We cannot recruit because the attendances are low and the coming restructure after next season.
If we're gonna change coach it should be now, not part way through next season, unsettling the team and risking another poor season. Personally I think our problem is caused by the half-d recruitment signing Brown at great expense knowing he'd be the only big name in the side but not making him captain. Signing too many ill-disciplined players and expecting an untested coach to sort em into shape. Deciding that was all we were signing cos the crowds were too low to sustain further squad building. Failing to blood the young players and selecting/retaining some championship standard older players in front of them. Should have been:
Season 1: Play with kids, fill any gaps with whoever we have left from the championship, expect low crowds and pastings but save cash and build towards signing a top Forward, Half and Back to start in...
Season 2: With some quality in the spine of the team see which kids have come on and sign em up while looking for weak areas and signing to fill those gaps ready for...
Season 3: Attempt to reach play-offs and judge coach based on this season's performance ready to change if need be going into a new licensing period.
If Betts had done this we'd not be worried about the restructure because we'd have an established first team and hopefully would have built crowds. We've paid too much for Brown too early and are suffering the consequences.
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| Quote ="yossarian"Reality check 1: Hull are playing the best the have all season. They were tipped to challenge for silverware this year based on the squad they'd assembled but had a poor first half to the season with plenty of calls on their side for Gentle to go.
Reality check 2: After nearly 3 seasons under Denis Betts we're still not playing as well as we should be and still look out of our depth in SL for long periods in games.
I argued to let him have they run of the franchise, see how we build and then decide his fate based on the 3rd seasons performance in SL. Now two things have come to a head: We cannot recruit because the attendances are low and the coming restructure after next season.
If we're gonna change coach it should be now, not part way through next season, unsettling the team and risking another poor season. Personally I think our problem is caused by the half-d recruitment signing Brown at great expense knowing he'd be the only big name in the side but not making him captain. Signing too many ill-disciplined players and expecting an untested coach to sort em into shape. Deciding that was all we were signing cos the crowds were too low to sustain further squad building. Failing to blood the young players and selecting/retaining some championship standard older players in front of them. Should have been:
Season 1: Play with kids, fill any gaps with whoever we have left from the championship, expect low crowds and pastings but save cash and build towards signing a top Forward, Half and Back to start in...
Season 2: With some quality in the spine of the team see which kids have come on and sign em up while looking for weak areas and signing to fill those gaps ready for...
Season 3: Attempt to reach play-offs and judge coach based on this season's performance ready to change if need be going into a new licensing period.
If Betts had done this we'd not be worried about the restructure because we'd have an established first team and hopefully would have built crowds. We've paid too much for Brown too early and are suffering the consequences.'"
If we won the Challenge cup, the G.F and world war 3,some of our fans would still want our coach out.
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| I have always wanted Betts to go even with good results.He has upset a few players like Briscoe,Flynn,and we can see lost the dressing room already.
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| Rumour is that Bett's has gone. Nothing official
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| Mick Potter to take over?
Source @johnstankevitch @LeagueWeekly
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| I'm the source am I?
Well, not really. I responded to a tweet posted by League Weekly, and I was being sarcastic!
I've heard its Kurt Sorenson
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| Quote ="CAMS"I'm the source am I?
Well, not really. I responded to a tweet posted by League Weekly, and I was being sarcastic!
I've heard its Kurt Sorenson
'"
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| Quote ="CAMS"I'm the source am I?
Well, not really. I responded to a tweet posted by League Weekly, and I was being sarcastic!
I've heard its Kurt Sorenson
'"
Now that your just one of us fans mate what do you think of Denis? is he doing a good job in your eyes?
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| I've always been a fan
It's a tough one I think for Denis Betts. I don't think Widnes Vikings are one of those marquee clubs anymore that players would do anything to play for, and so this restricts what he can do when signing players, to a certain extent.
Money talks for players and so Widnes have to throw very good money around to get high quality players, but the problem is that they would have to pay over the odds of the likes of Wigan, St Helen's, Warrington etc...because players WANT to play for the top clubs and would probably take less money to do so.
Widnes pay top money but are then restricted in terms of quality strength in depth because a large proportion of the cash is tied up on a few players. So the middle to bottom end of the squad is average at best.
It's very difficult to make individual improvements of players that are significant enough to have an impact on team performances. Whilst you might get a 1% ability increase, it still leaves the player in the average bracket for ability.
When it comes to gameplans, tactics etc...nobody can really comment, because we don't know his coaching philosophy or strategy, but even with the best philosophy or strategy, hands are tied by the standard of players/team that you have.
In some ways I feel sorry for him.
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| One of the main discussion points on these forums has been the Vikings defence this year.
Defence boils down to trust.
If players trust the system that the coach puts in place, and they trust each other, and the system is a sound one, then the only way that a team can break that down is when individuals within the defensive structure make mistakes.
This happens all the time, it's just basic human nature to make mistakes, especially when under pressure. Fatigue also comes into play when defending, as the more tired you get, the less alert you become and when things happen quickly, which they do at the top level of the game, it's hard for tired players to react.
So I suppose you could say that maybe they aren't as fit as they possibly could be.
But then again, when you are coming up ball and giving penalties away, and find yourself on the back foot for 60 minutes of the game, it's inevitable that you'll get tired.
Are their trust issues in the squad, amongst players? Do the players trust the coach? Do the players trust the defensive system in place?
Unfortunately, working hard and having desire isn't quite enough, especially when you are playing against some fantastic attacking threats and in all honesty, when some of the players in the defensive system are very average.
Good teams are able to highlited weaknesses in the defensive line and exploit that.
Can Denis replace the weaknesses with better players? See my previous post
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| Stanky I feel Betts could have got better players from the Championship than Leuluai,Pickgersgill,and Ben Davies. I sometimes wonder if just picks his favourites and with Briscoe and Flynn not in contention makes me wonder.I like Clarke but why play him 65 mins before replacing him with Gore?Clarke and others need a rest to freshen them up. I feel Betts does not utilise his squad and his tactics at times looks predictable one man rugby.
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| I tend to fall similar to what John is saying. I think at times Betts has got the best out of this group and we've looked great but sometimes a few players aren't 100% and we can look ordinary as a unit.
I think a few players huge drops in form has been overlooked at time as the coach seems to be taking 100% of the blame! Look at games we have lost / drawn by 1-6 points and we've seen 2/3 shocking individual concentration lapses in those?
This Betts favourites stuff really needs to pass by the way as it was always plauers like Pickersgill, Allen and Isa yet Allen doesn't seem to be in the current 17 and they other 2 can't get a look in! Some young lads are getting game time and that was always slated in the same argument.
Some of his selections have been odd given our lack of go forward but the squad certainly needs investment and with that we could easily be knocking hard on the top 8 door.
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| I wouldn't disagree with you OFFTHECUFF about the choice of players. I've said for a long time now that some of the bottom Super League teams should be looking at Championship players.
The problem is though that the Super League clubs would have to compensate some of the lads playing in the Championship if they were to go full time, as some of them have decent jobs, and the likelihood would be that the clubs would want the players for next to nothing pay.
W
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| CAMS i know that some players in the Championship cant give up their jobs because on good money.But not all of them because some probably could go fulltime like Chris Hill and Sam Hopkins recently.I even said on the Widnes board a few years ago, we should try Sam Hopkins and guess what Wigan recently sign him.I do wonder what the Widnes scouts do, and it seems Betts dismisses the look out for players in the Championship.All the news is in the local papers,rugby papers, and watching games by travelling, or on Premier Sports.I understand not all can step up to Superleague level though, and on a positive i hope we win on Sunday.
Some jobs you can easily go back to work, and if i was working in a warehouse, or Macdonalds then Rugby be first due to a short career.There is time to do some courses in spare time because players can not train for 8 hours a day. I bet you could volunteer to go with tradesmen to do plumbing,plastering,painting,electrics etc.If say earn £30,000 a year and a part time rugby for £15000, then i can see why players stay in the Championship, if only offered £30,000 fulltime.So CAMS i do see your point of view.
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| You should become a championship agent Cuffy
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| Quote ="OFFTHECUFF"CAMS i know that some players in the Championship cant give up their jobs because on good money.But not all of them because some probably could go fulltime like Chris Hill and Sam Hopkins recently.I even said on the Widnes board a few years ago, we should try Sam Hopkins and guess what Wigan recently sign him.I do wonder what the Widnes scouts do, and it seems Betts dismisses the look out for players in the Championship.All the news is in the local papers,rugby papers, and watching games by travelling, or on Premier Sports.I understand not all can step up to Superleague level though, and on a positive i hope we win on Sunday.
Some jobs you can easily go back to work, and if i was working in a warehouse, or Macdonalds then Rugby be first due to a short career.There is time to do some courses in spare time because players can not train for 8 hours a day. I bet you could volunteer to go with tradesmen to do plumbing,plastering,painting,electrics etc.If say earn £30,000 a year and a part time rugby for £15000, then i can see why players stay in the Championship, if only offered £30,000 fulltime.So CAMS i do see your point of view.'"
I guess that now relegation is back clubs will be even more reluctant to go to the Championship for players (and by the same token Championship players may be more wary). We are back to the need for "instant success" this is going to cause Widnes a real headache I would think as they now need to find 6 or 7 "finished article" players to bolster the side for next season as they cannot take the risk that several players in the current squad will develop further and can be supplemented by 3 or 4 quality additions.
Short termism is back with a bang, with all the risks of clubs bankrupting themselves to stay alive in Superleague. Maybe the likes of Wigan, Warrington and Leeds can cream off the best Championship players, because they have the squads that are already big enough and good enough to absorb them and bring them on, but those teams likely to be in the relegation dog fight will want to spend every penny on proven players!
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