Sorry I didn't realize we were having a real time debate.

The point I was making was against the concept of the franchise system. Many Widnes fans complained about the drawbridge being pulled up at the time. I entirely agree it was wrong and a complete farce. The game should be decided on the pitch, it is after all a competition. After hearing the ramblings of your MP I find it annoying that this guy who represents you seems to think that Widnes have automatically got the right to enter in place off Crusaders.

The facts is P/R is bad for Widnes as they seem totally incapable of winning the Championship GF. That I can't see likely to happen in the near future with an inept coach like Cullen in charge.

The fact is if Widnes where to make it in SL via the franchise system it would depend on the following clubs not making progress on new grounds, Wakey, Cas and Salford. Cas and Salford I can't answer for but our project is looking very rosy indeed. The money already invested is very large, the people behind it are very influential. The progress has a lot of momentum. I know it's hard to take, and it removes one of the aces from you sleeve but you will just have to accept it.

Wrong jackass Widnes won via the grand final in 2001, Widnes had there chance in Super League? wtf you talking you have survived with luck i dont know how many times. The majority of Wakefield fans are pleasant but you mate are a complete t0sser and need telling. Wakefield as a club are one of the most vulnerable around, dont you still owe the taxman a pot full? come on here with a reasonable debate or go away.

Obviously I'm talking about access to SL in the present system. For the record that promotion didn't really work out for in the long run. Your club just wasn't resilient enough to compete in SL for more than a few seasons.

First things first the Widnes MP is in no way representative of Widnes Vikings or it's fans. Of course we applaud anyone who challenges the idiots up at Red Hall but don't be under any illusion that his so called 'ramblings' are in any way a reflection of the club. Have you heard Steve O'Connor or Terry O'Connor making such comments?



Your 'debate' loses a lot of credibility with moronic comments like that.



And the rest of your 'debate' loses it's final shreds of credibility and exposes the truth as to why you've come on here crying and ranting like a child.

Our bid is dependent on no one's failure. Our bid will be based on the results of the hard work of our new chairman in producing something that the RFL will find irresistible to turn down.

The future of your club and it's pie in the sky investments is of no consequence to the Widnes Vikings, we'll see you in 2012 if you can last that long.

Twitchy bum time for you, enjoy it while you can

Why is P/R bad for Widnes? previous finals were under the guidance of Steve Mccormack who has a bad habit of messing up Grand Finals.

Slating Cullen also makes me laugh, we are more than happy with having him as coach and i hope he stays a long time.

Your stadium project is based on plans and drawings, we seen the same from Salford about 4 years back and nothings moved. Show me the bricks being laid and then we might start to believe. Belle Vue is a souless dump and a shocking effort to the Super League, your only saving grace is John Kear as without him you would be well and truelly fooked IMO.

Your fighting a losing battle deeHell

You've got a point but a little harsh considering that was the only year 2 teams have ever been relegated from Super League, and we had over double the points Leigh had who finished bottom. However I don't think anyone would argue that we are a much stronger club than back then, infact off the field have we ever been stronger?

Plus, this point is a million miles away from your original point. We didn't compete for that year and we rate ourselves above Barrow. Ok, both opinions though not fact. Aren't you disregarding Halifax, Featherstone, Leigh and Toulouse in this debate? We OBVIOUSLY want to get to SL, and as a club are doing everything they can to get there, I don't think you can knock that ambition, what a few fans think is irrelevant.

None of this has happened on this thread, and we know that Barrow are not a e club. Most don’t think that Barrow are ready for SL, but that isn’t the same as calling them e.


Even £3M is a lot of money to raise within 2 years. I’m not sure it would be enough to bring the whole of Craven Park up to SL standard. Barrow are certainly improving fast, but they have far too much catching up to do, and I cannot see them being in a position to out-bid Widnes in 2012. It’s not just the stadium they are behind on.



Do Barrow have the money now and an actual start date for the work to be carried out?

The build at Dens Park may not be the same as the build required by Craven Park. As things stand, I see little chance of Craven Park being SL standard by 2012.


A French club will get the nod, rightly or wrongly, over Barrow. Barrow are not really an expansion club anyway. Yes, a Cumbrian club in SL would be a great thing for the game up there, and even for RL as a whole, but it is on slightly dodgy ground calling it expansion imo.

If the RFL include two clubs from the Championship, then two clubs would have to be dropped from SL. The only way this would happen is if the Crusaders get in trouble and fail. I think this could leave 2 spaces, provided they also drop another club. It would, almost certainly, just mean that one heartland club and an expansion club will be chosen, just like last time. I think a French club will get the nod for the expansion place and Barrow will be competing with Widnes, Halifax and Fev for the heartland spot. I just cannot see Widnes not getting a licence against any heartland club in 2012. Toulouse or Stade Francais are another matter though.

None of this is because I think Barrow are e. I don’t think that at all.

you would need a stadium similar to Leighs , or at least as good as the Shay , a lot more than 3 .5 million , and not something that could be built in the time scale you suggest happened in Dundee .

As I said you have come a long way in a short space of time , unfortunatley I think even if you could find the money , time will be against you , so that then begs the questions , 1 will the RFL stick to a policy of admitting a Championship side into SL every 3 years , and will your management be willing to wait till then potentially without a cast iron promise ?

All the best

Yet another fan coming on here telling us that we have no right to want to better ourselves.

I have to ask you Deehell, how will you feel when you are replaced by someone with not even a fraction of your history or current strength? Will you be happy for YOUR club to lose out "for the good of the game" as many others in super league say they would? Because we all know thats a crock of B.S. and anyone who fails to acknowledge this is a complete liar.

This being the case, what is the problem with us wanting to be part of the haves in the game. It's not much fun being one of the put upons in this corrupt sport. We're not assuming we belong anywhere, our club and town has put the hard work in. We didn't get the super league cash that your club did which has consistently managed to put clubs like yours at a severe advantage and yet we still managed to get the stadium and our fans are still flocking to the club and we're still producing players. You all took Murdoch's cash and Wakefield and others did not make hay whilst the sun shines, we deserve a chance to prove we are better than that and ultimately failing someone goes out of business you will get what is coming to you.

Hope you don't mind a playing field as uneven as a ski slope, a cup competition that ebbs away any interest early on in the season and caps which severely limit your ability to outperform average set ups in a small league with two spots of relegation. When they promote South Wales Scorpions and Glasgow Nutters I will promise not to look at the bigger picture as to why they are finishing ahead of you and simply tell you to "stop whingeing" and I will definitely call your club "under performing". I've had plenty of experience in this so I know all the right things to say to someone worried about the future of their club. I think the drill is to be ultra patronising, ignorant and happy about it whilst my club is one of the chosen even to the detriment of the game as a whole. Can't wait.

Quote ="SRC"Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a e club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame. Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. =#000000The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects. I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club. Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season. I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc. Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ??'" Apparently it cost £12m. Source: www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink

Quote ="SRC"Firstly, this topic was started by a Wakefield fan. Once again people go into 'Barrow is a e club with a dodgy chairman etc etc' routine as a kneejerk reaction which is a shame. Regarding our stadium, as has been said many, many times before, the club and fans of Barrow RL know far better than anyone that Craven Park needs to be brought up to scratch (we have to visit it every couple of weeks after all!). However, saying it needs £10-£15M spending on it is clearly ridiculous. =#000000The Halliwell Jones only cost £6.5M and that was a brand new site and stadium. The major areas to concentrate on are 1,000 more seats to reach SL requirements, new floodlights (which are imminent I believe), a new-build clubhouse/media centre and terracing re-modelling. The development fund already has more than enough finance to fund new toilets, electronic scoreboard and other smaller projects. I think £3M would be more than enough (based upon other such developments at football grounds over the past few years). Still a lot of money, but certainly not £15M and certainly not an impossible target based considering the grants/loans that are available for community-based sports projects. Work has been ongoing for almost 2 years in securing funding forthe stadium improvements and a SL-esque infrastructure, so although Barrow's progress has come as a shock to most, it hasn't to those inside the club. Regarding timescales, when Dens Park (home of Dundee FC) required improvement, Barr Stadium Construction Ltd were charged with the task of removing the existing concrete terraces and the construction of two, 3,000 seater stands. The stands were built in a record time of 82 days for the start of the next Scottish Premier League season. I know that most other fans are completely writing us off, which I know suits the Barrow club fine. The RFL know how we have progressed and are in regular contact for updates. After all, we would be seen as an 'expansion club' to Super League, but without many of the risks associated to Crusaders etc. Anyway, who's to say that only 1 new team will enter SL in 2012 ??'" Apparently it cost £12m. Source: www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink

I could only see ,,,,,,,,,, when reading that then, it put me right off.

You didn’t mention anything about our MP, just our fans moaning. So now you’ve changed your tune.


You’re just not getting the fact that we no longer have P&R are you?

A licence system is a very different situation, and clubs are chosen over a wide range of criteria. Forget promoting clubs solely on on-the-field performance- that is no longer relevant.


Not necessarily. However, all those clubs licence bids relied totally on a pack of lies about building new stadiums.


Yes, we’ve heard all that cr@p before haven’t we?

I think this is only the start of of the criticism that we are going to be in for. Whilst I don't think it will get to Celtic levels, IMO fans of SL clubs under threat like Wakefield, Cas and Salford and also rival Championship clubs like Halifax and Barrow will all be aiming pot shots at our club.

We should just let most of it ride over our heads, at the end of the day we're in pole position to take a SL spot in 2012 and no amount of whinging from fans of other clubs will change anything.

I know fook all about club finances but surely taking a licence off a current SL club that is saddled with at least a couple of million £s debt (I'm not referring to any particular club) will force that club into administration/liquidation. I think by it's very nature any club thrown out of SL will not have a rich benefactor and I fail to see how any club could service such large debts with no central funding from SKY.

I wouldn't take any offence to what 'kinell' or whatever he's called has spouted. As V4E has said, we may be in for a lot of it.

Take it as a compliment (a backhanded one maybe) but make no mistake, these are very twitchy times for some clubs and fans. We may or may not get a spot in 2012 but we are right up there and knocking hard and our rivals know it.

Bring it on

.

Very good point , one I have not seen pointed out before , Put it up on the VT , that should stir them up a bit

That's a very interesting point. The fact that a club can rack up massive debts trying to compete in SL and actually make themselves un-relegatable, because it would immediately cause their demise, shows the complete absurdity of the licence system and the whole process thereof.

I have thought about this, but the RFL have clearly stated that a SL club will definitely be relegated. Therefore, some poor club is probably looking at oblivion. The whole thing is a complete mess.

Barrow are light years behind Widnes, Fax and even Leigh.

There is a connection that these 3 clubs have been in SL before



SL can do one as far as I'm concerned. For what is happening, SL is causing more damage than good. Lots of clubs are massively in debt and it will only take time before they go bust.

Let Barrow go up I say. A god few tonkins will soon make them a laughing stock, and the 'self important' of a Chairman will realise that there is more to RL than SL and Sky. Crowds will dwindle back to 600-800 and they can get back to their 60 mile local derbies at Workington (oh, SL has already stuffed them once hasn't it?)

Widnes are the only team outside SL with the infrastructure in place, and unfortunately, thats a fact. With the way things are going (and we are only in year 1 of the franchise), I can see SL begging some Championship clubs to come up 2012 with some potential big casualties along the way (and the bloody North Wrexham Crusaders (or whatever they are bloody called) won't be one of them (they will be gone by 2011!)

Quote ="rufustanner"Apparently it cost £12m. Source: www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink'" www.barr.co.uk/brochures/stadia.pdf ..... page 8. £6.8M actually, I was a tad under.

Quote ="rufustanner"Apparently it cost £12m. Source: www.warringtonwolves.org/Halliwell.ink'" www.barr.co.uk/brochures/stadia.pdf ..... page 8. £6.8M actually, I was a tad under.

In what way are Barrow 'light years' behind Fax and Leigh ???? Our crowds are as big (if not bigger), we have 2 trophies in the cabinet and that is just after 1 year at the higher level. Both Fax and Leigh play in better stadia, but why does renting a 'nice' ground once a fortnight make them better clubs ?? Fax, Leigh and Widnes have all played in SL and were ultimately relegated. Hardly a great track record at the higher level.

I agree with every sentiment in this post except the word "unfortunately", but we all know you didn't mean it Snowy Lad.

Throw him in the keep net, another Widnes Vikings fan to put to the ever growing list. Well done Snowy!

Already on it Chris


[uViking fans Training list 2009/2010[/u

Subject - Littlerich
Subject - Starbug
Subject - Snowy
Subject - Leyther Matt

You really are deluded Pal. Barrow averaged a few hundred more than Leigh. So what? Swap positions, and Leigh would have been easily averaging 3000 +
If you had half of the quality amateur clubs that Widnes, Leigh and Halifax have, then you might have a point.

I think you are going to be in for a pretty difficult season. Lets see how your twitchy chairman reacts to it because you will lose a few, and you wont win the league !

As for Warringtons ground (and coming from a good source living in Warrington), the total cost was 8.2m which will rise further when the capacity is increased. Having played at Craven Park a few times, then I agree that a couple of million or so will need spending. Its a good little ground but it is falling to pieces. Develop it all you want, but Barrow in my opinion will never be in SL !



Sure to see yourself and the 90 or so Barrow fans travelling down the M6 for the Sky game next year. My heart is always filled with cheer when we are privilidged to see such an away following!

Easy tiger !!!

Just stating the obvious. I used to have a soft spot for Barrow but they really are getting as irritating as the HKR fans we onced put up with !

Oh, are they the club 3m+ in debt yet still getting attendances of 9k +



Unbelievable!

to be fair to HKR, they were actually better than us that season where it counted-on the field, the self proclaimed king of kings were sailing towards super league and they knew it.

That system is now gone and thankfully for us snowy our club is well positioned to take advantage of the current rules and Barrow are far behind us where it now matters in this respect.