This thread is just mischief making on Niks part. We will see how the crusaders go in the long term, we've seen massive crowds from new teams before, in the meantime, it's still nothing to do with us. But nice try Nik.

It isn't mischief making at all Chris, as a passionate supporter of expansion I noticed when the relocation of the Crusaders franchise that there was a lot of talk in the VT that they would be taking fans from established clubs. My view was that it wouldn't happen, and that it would bring new spectators to the sport, especially in Wrexham, a large town with no real sporting presence that is full of ex North Westerners.

No trolling intended, I was just curious if this actually had happened.

Could've fooled me Nik. Thing is, Wrexham and Widnes might be close geographically but not culturally. Our Welsh contingeant is not all that large and you're unlikely to dent our figures with a club there.

I would say our current crowd decreases are more to do with the licensing saga and the inevitable bad feeling towards a team that has its ambitions capped by "passionate supporters of expansion". People who would see clubs like Oldham go to the wall just to see a sham team in Sunbury on Thames.

The longer we're stuck in this division with the current feeling of scepticism towards the governing body of the sport the more the crowds will drop, and every club are going to suffer the same fate.

I grew up in Wrexham, and can tell you without a shadow of doubt that there has always been a large RL following in the town (hence my interest in their impact on SL). I knew as many english as welsh when I was growing up on the outskirts in the late 70s/early 80s.

And yes, I would see Oldham go to the wall. I'd also see Leigh or Widnes go if there was the obvious lack of interest in the game in the area as there obviously is no interest in the game in Oldham, certainly compared to Wrexham or Catalonia. I wouldn't say I'd be happy to see them go but you can't keep throwing money at clubs that are failing, its no wonder the RFL is only just turning its finances around after years of paddling a holed canoe.
I'm not saying that Broncos are my ideal team, but at least I can understand that without a London club, there will be no Sky money. Without Sky money there will be no SLE. Without SLE, RL will continue the slide into obscurity that had started before its creation. So a London club is a necessary evil in the game.
Conversely, Catalan and Crusaders (to date, I'm not shouting too loudly about Crusaders crowds yet though, give it a second season of good attendances) are showing that you can grow the sport outside it's recent heartland core. So two out of three successes, with one necessary evil isn't a bad result.

Incidentally, I used the word "recent" rather than "traditional" as it is only the post war era where the game has retreated to the North of England. The expanisionists are just reclaiming historic bases.

So which one is it? Keep Harlequins or let them die?

He always used to go and watch whichever team had a game he liked the look of, but why he would head over to Wrexham when he could get to St Helens far easier is beyond me. Still, he earns it so I suppose he can spend it as he likes.

There is a lot of interest in the game around Oldham, just as there is in Widnes, Leigh and Cumbria. Don't confuse lack of interest in the biggest clubs in those places with any lack of interest in the game of rugby league. The amateur game is thriving in those places. I can't think of any amateur team in or around Wrexham.

i love these expansionists who've been following the european super league for 15 years.god knows how many millions of euro's later & theres still only one team from the mainland.you just could'nt make it up.if it was'nt so ridiculous i'd p1ss myself laughing.

Letting hundreds of year old clubs die and replacing them with struggling teams in pockets of the country is not expansion, its a relocation, and one that leaves us significantly worse off. You would allow Oldham to go to the wall?

You're pathetic mate. People like you with pie in the sky ideas and a tactless disregard for history and existing fans are exactly what is wrong with this game. Instead of having a game which is ran by people trying to strengthen the game as a whole we have a bunch of one eyed morons who are actually more worried about how others think about us than serving existing fans.

This is our game. We made it, for us, because rugby as was wouldn't allow us to grow.

There is no point growing the game even to be intergalactic if you take it out of our hands, because that's just a sport someone else is enjoying. I wouldn't even sacrifice leigh for a team elsewhere, there's no point. I would encourage growth elsewhere, but simply tossing a franchise in the outer hebrides and shouting "catch" wont work and if we as a sport neglect our stronghold we will weaken to a degree we may never recover from.

And I have yet to see one piece of evidence to suggest sky would pull their cash without the current sham that is Quins. It's conjecture, and probably nonsense. We're already underpaid for the viewers we bring in, and our media coverage in the capital is still negligeable and doesn't improve when Quins are doing well so I fail to see that argument. If we got rid of them, we'd be in roughly the same position. I'd suggest we don't need to just yet and I wouldn't relegate them tomorrow but neither would I prioritise them above the Oldhams of this world, rugby league runs deep there and we'll lose a lot if we give it up entirely. The London question is too complex to be summed up in one paragraph but let's not pretend they are some sacred cow rugby league cannot survive without.

People like you honestly make me laugh. You'd be happy for rugby league to completely lose the whole north of england as long as it was massively popular elsewhere. What on earth would be the point of that?

Tbf There is a history of League in the south of France.

theres no history of french teams in the british game is there?.what do catalan bring to RL in this country-nothing-no TV money no sponsorship money no expantion of RL in france.is there domestic league any stronger because they're in SL?infact what they accually do is take £650thousand pounds out of the british game every year-unexceptable for me-that money could be better spent strengthening the british game or even strengthening the french game at grass roots.its a complete waste of money.

i'll say what ive said before & that is,no one is saying dont expand the game but it must be done properly & that means growing from the bottom as the scorpions seem to be doing & not by design or by accident as some others seem to have done.

also if you want a european league by all means have one but it needs to be seperated from the RFL & totally self-sufficient & not filled with teams from lancashire & yorkshire.

We have a European League, its called the European Superleague and it was founded with the intention of being a European competition, not a Yorkshire & Lancashire one.

No expansion in France? So a small semi-pro side being watched by a thousand people growing to a professional side watched by 7-8,000 is not expanding the game in France? The game in France was dying pre-Catalans, the club have given the French game a shot in the arm and has given young French players something to aspire to.

Let me ask you a question, under what circumstances could a French expansion side, hell any expansion side, be considered a success in your eyes? Apparently an 8,000 average and an 18,000 crowd at an on the road game in another country isn't enough, so what's success in your eyes, at what point would you say 'they have been successful?'. A 15,000 average? A twenty thousand capacity stadium? A team entirely composed of French players? Two thousand away fans at every game? The French international team becoming as strong as England in the space of a few years?

It seems that the expectations that you place upon expansion sides are several orders of magnitude higher than those that you place on heartlands sides. Apparently it's okay for Halifax and Salford to average 4,000 in Superleague or to take ten years to complete construction of a stand, but how dare those dodgy French types not manage to transform into the equivalent of Real Madrid overnight.

FYI talking about grass roots expansion, XIII Catalan were formed in 1935, just how long would you want them to wait before they got a chance at Superleague?

No they were not they were formed with the sole reason to get into super league.

Their effect on the Widnes Vikings attendances is so negligible it makes any point you are trying to make…er…well…pointless.

The people of Chester’s interest in the Wrexham Crusaders has so badly effected their interest in the Widnes Vikings that that the Range Rover dealer James Edwards of Chester has decided to sponsor us.

[urlhttp://www.widnesvikings.co.uk/article.php?id=998[/url

France I have always been absolutely fine with. I'm arguing that letting our traditional clubs fall flat on their backside but bailing out pet projects will leave us significantly worse and is absurd. If you want to expand the game, fine, but don't do it at anyone's expense.

if you think 12 english 1 welsh & a french team make a european league then fair enough.as for why it was set up-we know why is was set up & 15years later it really has'nt changed has it?as you say the cats are getting good gates-so what-widnes will get good gates when they get there chance & the differance being the money they get off the RFL will go back into the british game which is how it should be.
by the way the game in france has'nt changed one way or the other in 70years & it wont change until people invest lots of money in it so this idea that one french team is going to help the national game is rubbish,they will continue to get well beat until there is 3/4 french team filled with french players.

i'll sum my idea of expansion up in three words-south wales scorpions.

I guess you backed the Crusaders too, until they became more successful than your club?

go on, enlighten us. Define success, a club thrown in to the deep end ran by a bloke hoping to make a quick buck willing to give up at the first chance having to relocate hours away losing the small core of support it has musterd up getting by on a load of holiday makers, or a club steeped in history winners of the world club championship heading a whole host of over honours.

no not the celtic crusaders i did'nt & you know why,because you've been told a hundred times.& no they've never been more successful than my club leigh.

but i do back the wrexham crusaders &,i wish them all the best & i've said that from day one.i just hope they start to use more british players quite soon.

I actually can't remember why you specifically don't/didn't like Celtic Crusaders, I've heard a thousand different reasons from different people like you say. But they also started life in the lowest division and worked their way up. Yes they had an exemption on imports, but there weren't any Welsh players of required standard available at the time, so there wasn't any other option. The only reason Scorpions now have players and fans and are able to exist and be competitive is because of the development work done by Celtic Crusaders. And to be honest, Celtic Crusaders' first season was similar in a lot of ways to the Scorpions', it was only later that things started to fall away a bit and they became too ambitious without doing the necessary groundwork first. I'm glad that you are backing the new Crusaders though, with proper administration there's no reason why it can't be a success, and that goes for any club expansion or traditional in my eyes.

And I didn't mean more successful in terms of history and trophies won, just that they got to a level where they could consistently compete with and challenge your club. I've found a lot of fans who are 100% behind expansion until it looks like it may have an impact on their club, in which case the tide quickly turns.

I have no problem with South Wales Scorpions, nor any real issues with the Crusaders. However I still feel that you are an obsessed t!t who looks down his nose at anyone and everyone outside SL.

He does tend to make a complete fool of himself going off on just about anyone from the lower leagues. Over aggressive, totally uncalled for and had the gall to call me too biased to be a moderator.

But Nozzy mate can you not get around the swear filter on this board. We have a very decent cameraderie on here and we don't need to lose that with bad language, be creative instead.

That goes for everyone.

anyone exempt from the salary cap would be able to compete, why oh why do we keep having to go over this, just accept that the process was all wrong and be done with it.

Not forgetting breaking the laws of the land and operating at a different salary cap level , and as for them being the Celtic Crusaders , they no longer exist , the 2 welsh clubs we now have are totally new ventures

Now the problem comes here from how it is done , in Australia SKY fund melbourne , everybody knows they do and everybody knows the reason why , for some reason over here the RFL are scared of telling the truth , we need expansion , it has to be payed for , but the RFL prefer to treat us like idiots ' pretending ' that clubs are operating within the same rules as all the other clubs , they are dishonorable and therefore in my opinion are not fit to run our sport

the bit in Bold says it all really.

Like London, Crusaders have NEVER been promoted to SL. they have just been placed there to sell Sky dishes!

Their Business plan will not see past 2012, which confirms the mockery of these clubs being in SL !