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| Quote ="Mild Rover"'Maybe' and even 'probably' are not a good way to advertise a position. You weren't in a position to make an offer. Preliminary contact could have been made, but nobody would put off sorting their future until this late in the year through choice.'" offering a role on the conditional basis of another variable i agree is not ideal for most players, however it would have still got us further on the front foot and maybe as a one off a certain player may have chose to take the conditional offer and see how it works out. |
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Had the club thought of it earlier they could have floated the idea with the rfl and got a pro forma answer. They would then have known that either Berro would stay and could come off or go with the same result. Fans had been talking about getting Berro off quota for some time not knowing whether it was possible or not but could see that it would be helpful. Had this be known earlier regardless of Berro's decision they could have talked with prospective players with a fair amount of certainty even though official "ratification" may have meant that any deal had to be on a "what if" basis until being formally sorted. That may of course still be the case in that we've been talking to players on this very basis? Who knows.
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Can't help but feel that some people are making an issue of this just because they like to moan about the club.
None of us know how events unfolded and yet you're willing to jump to the conclusion that there was some measure of incompetence involved. I think that's rather depressing TBH.
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| Quote ="ChrisH"Had the club thought of it earlier they could have floated the idea with the rfl and got a pro forma answer. They would then have known that either Berro would stay and could come off or go with the same result. Fans had been talking about getting Berro off quota for some time not knowing whether it was possible or not but could see that it would be helpful. Had this be known earlier regardless of Berro's decision they could have talked with prospective players with a fair amount of certainty even though official "ratification" may have meant that any deal had to be on a "what if" basis until being formally sorted. That may of course still be the case in that we've been talking to players on this very basis? Who knows.'"
The rules are very complicated and my opinion is very far from definitive - but, for his new fed-trained status to be useful wouldn't he have needed an EU (or similar) passport? Finding out how long this would take from the relevant (German? Irish?) authorities mightn't have been straight forward. This in turn, could have been looked at earlier - but maybe the club thought it'd be a bit insensitive to be pestering the lad. Lot of speculation there, I admit, but my point is that things are often more complicated in real life than they seem when viewed from on here. |
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| Quote ="Kosh"Can't help but feel that some people are making an issue of this just because they like to moan about the club.
None of us know how events unfolded and yet you're willing to jump to the conclusion that there was some measure of incompetence involved. I think that's rather depressing TBH.'"
My thoughts too. |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"The rules are very complicated and my opinion is very far from definitive - but, for his new fed-trained status to be useful wouldn't he have needed an EU (or similar) passport? Finding out how long this would take from the relevant (German? Irish?) authorities mightn't have been straight forward. This in turn, could have been looked at earlier - but maybe the club thought it'd be a bit insensitive to be pestering the lad. Lot of speculation there, I admit, but my point is that things are often more complicated in real life than they seem when viewed from on here.'"
Precisely.
There's also still the cap to manage while all this goes on. Do you just abandon pursuit of other targets while waiting on the outcome? If we'd got our main targets then there wouldn't have been space on the cap to get anyone in from overseas anyway. |
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| Quote ="Mild Rover"The rules are very complicated and my opinion is very far from definitive - but, for his new fed-trained status to be useful wouldn't he have needed an EU (or similar) passport? Finding out how long this would take from the relevant (German? Irish?) authorities mightn't have been straight forward. This in turn, could have been looked at earlier - but maybe the club thought it'd be a bit insensitive to be pestering the lad. Lot of speculation there, I admit, but my point is that things are often more complicated in real life than they seem when viewed from on here.'"
As far as I understand it the only way you come off the quota is to have been here pre feb 08 now wether berrigan was able to claim the exemption this year is a good point but as far as I understand it that would have been the only problem.
As someone else has said FC could have possibly floated the idea with the RFL and then they would have had a fair idea if they should have been putting irons in fires.
Thus is all a pointless conversation ow though as what's done is done. |
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| Quote ="Roverswall"As far as I understand it the only way you come off the quota is to have been here pre feb 08 now wether berrigan was able to claim the exemption this year is a good point but as far as I understand it that would have been the only problem.
As someone else has said FC could have possibly floated the idea with the RFL and then they would have had a fair idea if they should have been putting irons in fires.
Thus is all a pointless conversation ow though as what's done is done.'"
In order to qualify a player has to have been registered before Feb 08 AND have an EU passport or equivalent AND be in the final year of his contract. Berrigan only qualified under the pre-Feb 08 clause. In order to get him off the quota he first had to obtain an EU passport, then convince the RFL that being in the third year of a contract with an option for a fourth year was the same as being in the final year of a contract.
With all that's gone on over the last couple of seasons I can't see why some people think this would be a quick and easy process. Or indeed that the RFL would have responded in a timely or useful manner to the idea being 'floated' and effectively issue pre-emptive permission. |
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| Quote ="Kosh"Can't help but feel that some people are making an issue of this just because they like to moan about the club.
None of us know how events unfolded and yet you're willing to jump to the conclusion that there was some measure of incompetence involved. I think that's rather depressing TBH.'"
Is it classed as jumping to conculsions when previous evidence from our club demonstrates a history of incompetence? It's not like incompetence would be a one off is it with our current regime in place? |
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| Quote ="Big Dave T"Is it classed as jumping to conculsions when previous evidence from our club demonstrates a history of incompetence? It's not like incompetence would be a one off is it with our current regime in place?'"
There is a difference between making mistakes and incompetence. In this particular area we have no history of incompetence whatsoever. Even if we did, you are further assuming that no lessons were learned from previous mistakes.
I would also humbly suggest that an incompetent regime would not have resulted in a club that makes profits year after year and sails through the SL franchise process with consummate ease.
Just because you don't agree with the choice of coach doesn't make the club 'incompetent'.
Oh - and yes, it would still be jumping to a conclusion. |
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| Quote ="Kosh"I would also humbly suggest that an incompetent regime would not have resulted in a club that makes profits year after year and sails through the SL franchise process with consummate ease.
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Been competent in running one facet of a business doesnt make them wholly competent in all aspects. That's an assumption you're making there!   |
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| Quote ="Kosh"In order to qualify a player has to have been registered before Feb 08 AND have an EU passport or equivalent AND be in the final year of his contract. Berrigan only qualified under the pre-Feb 08 clause. In order to get him off the quota he first had to obtain an EU passport, then convince the RFL that being in the third year of a contract with an option for a fourth year was the same as being in the final year of a contract.
With all that's gone on over the last couple of seasons I can't see why some people think this would be a quick and easy process. Or indeed that the RFL would have responded in a timely or useful manner to the idea being 'floated' and effectively issue pre-emptive permission.'" Then the RFL have changed how the exemption is going to work then as having an EU passport was in no way mentioned previously.
I suppose the RFL are consistent in one way.
That being that they cannot consistently enforce rules.
I will ask one question though that being how did Willie Manu get an EU passport was it under residency? |
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| Quote ="Kosh"In order to qualify a player has to have been registered before Feb 08 AND have an EU passport or equivalent AND be in the final year of his contract. Berrigan only qualified under the pre-Feb 08 clause. In order to get him off the quota he first had to obtain an EU passport, then convince the RFL that being in the third year of a contract with an option for a fourth year was the same as being in the final year of a contract.
With all that's gone on over the last couple of seasons I can't see why some people think this would be a quick and easy process. Or indeed that the RFL would have responded in a timely or useful manner to the idea being 'floated' and effectively issue pre-emptive permission.'" Then the RFL have changed how the exemption is going to work then as having an EU passport was in no way mentioned previously.
I suppose the RFL are consistent in one way.
That being that they cannot consistently enforce rules.
I will ask one question though that being how did Willie Manu get an EU passport was it under residency? |
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Manu was residency.
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| Quote ="Roverswall"Then the RFL have changed how the exemption is going to work then as having an EU passport was in no way mentioned previously.
I suppose the RFL are consistent in one way.
That being that they cannot consistently enforce rules.
I will ask one question though that being how did Willie Manu get an EU passport was it under residency?'"
Did you miss the 'or equivalent' on purpose?
The difference between Non-Fed Trained and old-style quota is that NF players have employment rights in the EU. This means they have EU citizenship or citizenship of countries that are covered by an agreement set up by the EU many years ago - mainly South Seas Islands. This has ALWAYS been part of the criteria.
It amazes me how many people chat away about the quota without a clue about how it actually functions. It's not even as if the information is hard to come by.
Manu actually qualified twice. He is of Tongan descent which grants him employment rights in the EU and he also qualifies under UK residency rules. |
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Quote ="Kosh"Did you miss the 'or equivalent' on purpose?
The difference between Non-Fed Trained and old-style quota is that NF players have employment rights in the EU. This means they have EU citizenship or citizenship of countries that are covered by an agreement set up by the EU many years ago - mainly South Seas Islands. This has ALWAYS been part of the criteria.
It amazes me how many people chat away about the quota without a clue about how it actually functions. It's not even as if the information is hard to come by.
Manu actually qualified twice. He is of Tongan descent which grants him employment rights in the EU and he also qualifies under UK residency rules.'" Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy. |
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Quote ="Kosh"Did you miss the 'or equivalent' on purpose?
The difference between Non-Fed Trained and old-style quota is that NF players have employment rights in the EU. This means they have EU citizenship or citizenship of countries that are covered by an agreement set up by the EU many years ago - mainly South Seas Islands. This has ALWAYS been part of the criteria.
It amazes me how many people chat away about the quota without a clue about how it actually functions. It's not even as if the information is hard to come by.
Manu actually qualified twice. He is of Tongan descent which grants him employment rights in the EU and he also qualifies under UK residency rules.'" Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy. | |
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Quote ="Roverswall"Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy.'" I said at the time of this exemption that it was idiotic as taking Rovers into account it applied to every non fed player we had dobson aside. |
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Quote ="Roverswall"Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy.'" I said at the time of this exemption that it was idiotic as taking Rovers into account it applied to every non fed player we had dobson aside. | |
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Quote ="Roverswall"Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy.'"
It's a press article, and it doesn't even mention the full criteria. To qualify as Fed Trained you first need to be non-Fed rather than quota. And you're still missing out the 'or equivalent' bit.
The player needs to have the right to employment in the UK. That means either having an EU passport or coming from one of a number of countries that have an agreement with the EU that grants their citizens the same employment rights as an EU citizen. Since Berrigan does not qualify under the latter clause he needed to qualify under the former.
I got 'snippy' because this has been discussed to death on numerous occasions and all the relevant information posted on here, your own board, the VT, your 'private' forum, and links provided to the information on the RFL and SL websites. It is therefore rather frustrating to have to go over the same facts again with someone who [iappears[/i to be trying to score points. |
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Quote ="Roverswall"Not being funny here Kosh but this reds.originalreddevils.com/2008/ ... on-ruling/ gives no mention of any player needing to have an EU passport.
So i'm guessing the RFL HAVE changed how the exemption rule works.
This was kinda my point.
I certainly didn't need for you to start getting smart or snippy.'"
It's a press article, and it doesn't even mention the full criteria. To qualify as Fed Trained you first need to be non-Fed rather than quota. And you're still missing out the 'or equivalent' bit.
The player needs to have the right to employment in the UK. That means either having an EU passport or coming from one of a number of countries that have an agreement with the EU that grants their citizens the same employment rights as an EU citizen. Since Berrigan does not qualify under the latter clause he needed to qualify under the former.
I got 'snippy' because this has been discussed to death on numerous occasions and all the relevant information posted on here, your own board, the VT, your 'private' forum, and links provided to the information on the RFL and SL websites. It is therefore rather frustrating to have to go over the same facts again with someone who [iappears[/i to be trying to score points. | |
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| Quote ="Kosh"It's a press article, and it doesn't even mention the full criteria. To qualify as Fed Trained you first need to be non-Fed rather than quota. And you're still missing out the 'or equivalent' bit.
The player needs to have the right to employment in the UK. That means either having an EU passport or coming from one of a number of countries that have an agreement with the EU that grants their citizens the same employment rights as an EU citizen. Since Berrigan does not qualify under the latter clause he needed to qualify under the former.
I got 'snippy' because this has been discussed to death on numerous occasions and all the relevant information posted on here, your own board, the VT, your 'private' forum, and links provided to the information on the RFL and SL websites. It is therefore rather frustrating to have to go over the same facts again with someone who [iappears[/i to be trying to score points.'" I have been involved in the said conversations myself and im convinced the rule has been 'massaged' since it was first announced in 2008 as I have no memory of it mentioning you needing to have any other qualifiying factor other than you needing to have been registered pre feb 08.
Point scoring was not even in my mind when I first started on this subject BTW.
Infact like I said my first reaction on seeing the then new rule was 'That is idiotic'. |
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| Quote ="Roverswall"I have been involved in the said conversations myself and im convinced [uthe rule has been 'massaged'[/u since it was first announced in 2008.'"
Question is did he get any 'extras'??
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| Quote ="Roverswall"I have been involved in the said conversations myself and im convinced the rule has been 'massaged' since it was first announced in 2008 as I have no memory of it mentioning you needing to have any other qualifiying factor other than you needing to have been registered pre feb 08.'"
The reason for this is that the concession itself doesn't [ineed[/i any further criteria as it can ONLY apply to players who are non-Fed to start with. And to be non-Fed you need an EU passport or equivalent.
The only change made to the concession since it was first introduced was to change the date that a player needed to be registered before in order to qualify. |
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| Quote ="Kosh"The reason for this is that the concession itself doesn't [ineed[/i any further criteria as it can ONLY apply to players who are non-Fed to start with. And to be non-Fed you need an EU passport or equivalent.
The only change made to the concession since it was first introduced was to change the date that a player needed to be registered before in order to qualify.'" Fair enough.
I did go on the RFL website earlier to have a look but I had to leave it alone as when I tried to understand the salary cap rules my head almost exploded. |
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agar can hardly come out and say "we need a half back because the 2 we've got are way past it and spend 3/4 of the season injured anyway" can he? this half back "cover" will play more than either long or horne next season
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| Quote ="Kosh"There is a difference between making mistakes and incompetence. In this particular area we have no history of incompetence whatsoever. Even if we did, you are further assuming that no lessons were learned from previous mistakes.
Wasn't there once an issue once when something wasn't signed that should have been ?
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