On that I will agree 100%, I hope things do improve next year no matter who is playing in the h/backs, I fear unless the coach is replaced it would not matter though tbh!
I agree stats only tell half a story and can be manipulated to suit most arguments. My point is he is basically being asked to kick and lead the team around the park the job of a 7 and not a 6 as what he is being compared against, his will be doing less next year which I suspect may make his stats less flattering any way.

Chase would walk into any SL team, yes a coach would accept it and obviously try to improve it.

Compare his try's and try assists he does not offer what Chase does, harsh I admit saying he offers nothing in offence on reflection I should say he does not offer enough. Who would sooner have Chase or Horne ?

Ah, right - defence is only an issue if [iyou[/i say it is.

It's probably easier to compare percentages for missed tackles...

Horne: 12.5%
Gaskell: 11%
Chase: 25%


Briers: 15%
Finch: 8%
Brown: 6.8%

Brown and Finch are way ahead of the rest, and both make a large number of tackles; Gaskell and Horne are broadly similar; Briers is weaker; and Chase is WAY worse than anyone else. I'm not sure that his undoubted attacking prowess fully compensates for missing a whopping 1 in 4 tackles.

The problem is how many of Chase's missed tackles or penalties conceeded led to points? Maybe Chase's defence would be better if he had better defenders around him? Who knows?
I'd take the 2006 Horne over Chase.

Kosh we can both manipulate these stats for hours.....
You have excited yourself that much with thes before you finish you will have Horney as the better player that Chase even though you had Horney down as finished earlier this year. Now I am not getting personal but if you based your arguments on actually watching Horney play every week and watching I would take you more seriously, stats only tell half a story. You are not there when players bat Horney off and there are no stats for this, or how his speed has reduced, or his kicks which he appears to direct at the f.backs boots. He has had the odd decent game, but he also has poor ones now, so overall he is average and if you watched him you would realise those stats are only a fraction of the story.

So would I but it is now 2011

Brown & Finch play in the two of the 3 best defensively drilled sides, how many 1 on 1 tackles would they face? Briers is shocking considering how good Wire's defence on a whole is.

How can you be so sure that he couldn't return to something like that performance when he finally gets a settled, organising, good kicking scrum half alongside him?

As many have said, Horne's decline started with the loss of Cooke, but he did look better subsequently when playing with Head, and on the rare occasions with Dykes. Then Agar got the big job and he's struggled again since, in no small part because of the lack of dummy runners and options.



I don't see how being asked to lead the team around the pitch artificially 'inflates' his stats. The fact that he is being asked to be the main playmaker effectively puts a large target on his head for the defence, and with our lack of options a lot of the time it is easier for them to shut him down. Who's to say that having that responsibility lifted wouldn't see him working a bit wider in more space, and actually increase his assists and tries, or even the very presence of another playmaker in the side causing the necessary uncertainty in the opposition's defensive line for Horne to exploit?

You keep saying his dummy is much easier to read than it used to be. That's probably because the opposition's defence can see that there is no viable option for him to pass to, so can see the dummy coming. If he had better runners more often it would probably be bought more often as a result.

If Horney is not kicking & organising what do you think he offers the team ? genuine question.

For me he is slower, his step predictable and he gets batted off a lot more, so I am not sure what he will now add, I genuinely hope I am proved wrong however I doubt very much we will ever see the 2006 Horney and there is no evidence to suggest we will

Only one of us is getting excited on this thread, and it ain't me. I've spent much of the last couple of hours laughing TBH.



There's no manipulation of stats going on here, and frankly you haven't yet produced one that supports your argument in any case. You underestimate how much I see of Horne and also overestimate my opinion of him. You seem happy to ignore the fact that many people who see Horne just as often as you do also disagree with you. You go over stuff that's already been discussed and just repeat the same old points no matter how thoroughly they've been countered. You quote stats when it suits then dismiss them when it doesn't. You misinterpret what people are saying.

Now I'm not getting personal, but if you could understand what people post and put together a coherent argument I would take you more seriously.

Night night.

We always miss horney when he doesn't play that's a fact !

Night Kosh

He offers a good running game, his pace hasn't gone (as Friday proved), he has a very good short kicking game, can kick to the corners accurately and is a very good support player. He's got a pass, step and dummy, and with better support and dummy runners these aspects of his game become less predictable. I'm not the only one saying these things, maybe it's possible?

Yep. I'm not his greatest fan but this can't be argued.

He does not have the speed of 2006 but not too bad, his short kicking game is decent however we have other players who can produce this as well, I disagree with the pass he does the predictable inside pass (now this maybe down to Agar), Horne was never the one with the pass that was Cookies. He is one of the best support players out of a bad bunch, we simply do not produce much support generally as a team. His step and dummy are my most frustrating area tbh it is not good and predicatble and he is more than often caught out presently, although as Carl pointed out this maybe due to his extra responisbilities and could possibly improve if he got out wide.

I don't personally think this happens too often, certainly not significantly more than any other halfback in SL 1-on-1.



He's not as quick as he was over distance, but he's by no means slow either. I can't see him going the length of the field on a regular basis, but he's still quick enough to get far enough through a gap to feed supporting players to finish off tries, we're just poor in this area. I'd back Horne in a race against Briers every time, but Briers has the benefit of teammates flooding forward either side of him when he breaks through.



Simple answer, don't make him responsible for field-kicking. I still can't get my head round why our coaches can't grasp this concept. I'll never blame a player for not have a good kicking game, I blame persisting in using them as the kicker when it's clearly apparent they haven't. Horne's attacking kicking game in the opponents' half is actually good, just give the long kicking to someone else.

chase wont be coming to fc, horne has a two year contract, some are happy some clearly aren't! can't the mods lock this thread please? just going to go round and round this thread

I just can't agree. I'm not his biggest fan, but he's nowhere near as "average" as you make him out to be.

Spot on. Although I would say that he isn't as quick as he once was over distance.

He is not great or not poor so the only thing I can call him is average, maybe a bit harsh but no other way to describe his performances, had some good games also had some poor ones.I would love him to be great again and hope I will eat my words next year!

I would say it definitely is down to Agar, as it's not unique to Horne. Obst also does it, as does Washbrook (who also shares the same dummy/step issue), and it was pretty much all Tommy Lee did by the time he left us. It's a pathetic 'tactic' which relies on your opponent's defence being abysmal and consistently all at sea, hence why the superbly organised Wigan the other week kept us at bay fairly comfortably no matter how many times we tried it, even whilst playing well below their best. It's a strategy completely unsuited to us IMO, because in general we have one of the slowest play-the-balls in SL.

Cracking post. We look totally lost without Horne.

Chase is great to watch but if had more defensive responsibility would he be as god with ball in hand?

Yeah but other than that what else does he offer.

There you go again with your lack of comprehension.



It's comical.