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| Is Westerman a good enough defender to play 13?
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| Quote ="Sheldon"Is Westerman a good enough defender to play 13?'"
No, and neither is Whiting IMO.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"I meant more at fb tbh.
The majority of our young players are forwards as are Burnett and Aspinwall, I'd prefer him to move to the second row but can't see it.'"
It does just come down to McKinnon. Hopefully he'll stay fit most of the season (although I can't say I'm confident). Jack Briscoe has been on the books a while now though, it's about time we either saw what he can do or let him go, really.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"Is Westerman a good enough defender to play 13?'"
Only 1 way to find out for sure.
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"It does just come down to McKinnon. Hopefully he'll stay fit most of the season (although I can't say I'm confident). Jack Briscoe has been on the books a while now though, it's about time we either saw what he can do or let him go, really.'"
Jack didn't play much FB last year, he was shoved out to develop as a Winger, as that's where Agar saw him playing long term.
We don't have any cover for FB. Given we now have extra cap space and a quota spot, that we're considering signing Youngquest is strange as we could have just kept Phelps, who would have given us great code at FB and across the backs.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"Jack didn't play much FB last year, he was shoved out to develop as a Winger, as that's where Agar saw him playing long term.
We don't have any cover for FB. Given we now have extra cap space and a quota spot, that we're considering signing Youngquest is strange as we could have just kept Phelps, who would have given us great code at FB and across the backs.'"
Didn't he play Lyne and Matthews there?
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"It does just come down to McKinnon. Hopefully he'll stay fit most of the season (although I can't say I'm confident). Jack Briscoe has been on the books a while now though, it's about time we either saw what he can do or let him go, really.'"
In his last year of a deal I think, make or break.
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| Quote ="Marfa Manu"www.superleague.co.uk/statistics_player?hs1=2011&hp1=2226&hs2=2011&hp2=114&stat=tries&season=2011
Just about on par with tickle... interesting stats!'"
Very similar indeed, but how would each player cope with the extra workload that comes from defending the middle channel? Who is more likely to give us 35-40 tackles a game? IMO if you ask Westerman to do that much work you'd take too much out of him to be effective in attack. That's why I'd choose Tickle. Those missed tackles are a concern, mind.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"Didn't he play Lyne and Matthews there?'"
Yeah, Lynne really ripped it up on occasions aswell.
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| Quote ="carl_spackler"Only 1 way to find out for sure.'"
There is indeed, I can't help thinking he'll play there against Salford and blow them away but be poor against the top sides.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"Very similar indeed, but how would each player cope with the extra workload that comes from defending the middle channel? Who is more likely to give us 35-40 tackles a game? IMO if you ask Westerman to do that much work you'd take too much out of him to be effective in attack. That's why I'd choose Tickle. Those missed tackles are a concern, mind.'"
I'd have a guess that the majority of Tickles missed tackles were in the latter minutes of the halfs.
With good enough back row rotation that shouldn't be a problem.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"Very similar indeed, but how would each player cope with the extra workload that comes from defending the middle channel? Who is more likely to give us 35-40 tackles a game? IMO if you ask Westerman to do that much work you'd take too much out of him to be effective in attack. That's why I'd choose Tickle. Those missed tackles are a concern, mind.'"
You claimed he is not as good defensively as Tickle...his stats state he is, he works up the middle just about now, he is not stuck out defending the wings so I doubt being in the middle more would affect his work-rate. Tickle does not give us 35-40 tackles a game! he only did that all season,about approx 2 more a game.
You could look at it the other way, who is more likely to make a clean break or produce a good kick in play to open the play up.
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| Quote ="Sheldon"I'd have a guess that the majority of Tickles missed tackles were in the latter minutes of the halfs.
With good enough back row rotation that shouldn't be a problem.'"
You're probably right, plus I can remember at least a dozen times he's tried to put a shot on someone and missed.
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| Quote ="Marfa Manu"You claimed he is not as good defensively as Tickle...his stats state he is, he works up the middle just about now, he is not stuck out defending the wings so I doubt being in the middle more would affect his work-rate. Tickle does not give us 35-40 tackles a game! he only did that all season,about approx 2 more a game.
You could look at it the other way, who is more likely to make a clean break or produce a good kick in play to open the play up.'"
At no point in this thread have I claimed Tickle is a better defender.
And I can't agree that defending at 2nd row is 'just about' through the middle where a 13 would defend.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"At no point in this thread have I claimed Tickle is a better defender.
And I can't agree that defending at 2nd row is 'just about' through the middle where a 13 would defend.'"
'eh
You have clearly stated you wish to see Tickle at 13....Sheldon asked is Westy good enough to defend at 13, you then said no neither is Whiting, yet Westy is just as good at defending as Tickle!! You are clearly clutching at straws here
Danny Houghton does not do too bad up the middle for a small bloke does he ?
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"At no point in this thread have I claimed Tickle is a better defender.
'"
You said that teams would 'blow us away' with Westerman or Whiting at 13, but not with Tickle there. That strongly implies that you consider Tickle the better defender.
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| Quote ="Rock God X"You said that teams would 'blow us away' with Westerman or Whiting at 13, but not with Tickle there. That strongly implies that you consider Tickle the better defender.'"
He's changed his mind....thought I was the only one who did that
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| Quote ="Marfa Manu"'eh
You have clearly stated you wish to see Tickle at 13....Sheldon asked is Westy good enough to defend at 13, you then said no neither is Whiting, yet Westy is just as good at defending as Tickle!! You are clearly clutching at straws here
Danny Houghton does not do too bad up the middle for a small bloke does he ?'"
Right, I really don't want this to get into a squabble again. So here goes.
What have I just said about players adapting to defending through the middle? I think Tickle would be better than Westerman. You've compared them as 2nd rowers, where they're pretty much each others equal. You also think defending at 2nd row is the same as defending at 13, I find that nonsense tbh. So you seem to be quite happy to state that Westy will be just as good on that basis, I don't think its comparable.
As for size? Who said that has anything to do with it?
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| Quote ="Rock God X"You said that teams would 'blow us away' with Westerman or Whiting at 13, but not with Tickle there. That strongly implies that you consider Tickle the better defender.'"
At 13 I do think Tickle would be the better defender, now that's not the same as defending in the 2nd row is it? Where the woman is comparing them.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"Right, I really don't want this to get into a squabble again. So here goes.
What have I just said about players adapting to defending through the middle? I think Tickle would be better than Westerman. You've compared them as 2nd rowers, where they're pretty much each others equal. You also think defending at 2nd row is the same as defending at 13, I find that nonsense tbh. So you seem to be quite happy to state that Westy will be just as good on that basis, I don't think its comparable.
As for size? Who said that has anything to do with it?'"
What evidence have you got to suggest Tickle will be better ?
I think defensively they will be the same, [size=150check Westys stats for 2009 when he played 13 for Cas, he made even more tackles that season 699![/size plus he offers more offensively.
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| Looking forward to seeing Ellis play, think he will end up having a big role next season. Would still start with Horne and Seymour. Horney always does better with an organiser next to him, he is a short kicker and support runner, not a general.
We have half backs and are debating which one we should play! Brilliant!
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"Very similar indeed, but how would each player cope with the extra workload that comes from defending the middle channel? Who is more likely to give us 35-40 tackles a game? IMO if you ask Westerman to do that much work you'd take too much out of him to be effective in attack. That's why I'd choose Tickle. Those missed tackles are a concern, mind.'"
I think Fitz averaged about 6 -7 more tackles per game then Westerman. They made around the same amount of meters, but Westerman made far more tackle busts then Fitz.
Hopefully we will be far too busy attacking and scoring points, to worry too much about defence.
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| Quote ="east hull FC fan"At 13 I do think Tickle would be the better defender, now that's not the same as defending in the 2nd row is it? '"
That's a pretty thin argument. You said Westy isn't a good enough defender to play at 13, but Tickle is. If they are equal defending in the second row, I fail too see what basis you have for your conviction that Tickle would be so much better at 13.
I think what's happened is that you believed Tickle was a superior defender, the stats have shown otherwise, and you're trying to say that what you said isn't what you meant.
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| Quote ="Marfa Manu"What evidence have you got to suggest Tickle will be better ?
I think defensively they will be the same, [size=150check Westys stats for 2009 when he played 13 for Cas, he made even more tackles that season 699![/size plus he offers more offensively.'"
By them stats though he only made 8 more tackles than Tickle, missing 10 more! You say he offers more offensively yet he scored 1 less try than Tickle did this year in the 2nd row and only had 4 assists, the same as Tickle. You can interpret stats however you want, they don't tell the full story.
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