Understandable point, but in our CC winnign season, we punched above our weight on paper, In our 'Sharp' run to the Grand final, we did the same. They key was, no real stars, but a true team, being greater than the sum of the parts, and some key leaders on the pitch (Swain, Kearney, etc....) Couple that with a Bradford, Leeds and Wigan side who, on paper should have been better, under-performing, like we are now, and low on confidence - anything's possible.

This is sport, never give up until it's over, and it's not even started. We may not win the Monor Premireship, but we can compete in the top 6, and if we get to the point where we can beat anyone on our day - who knows.

And, if all else fails, maybe Leeds, St Helens, Wigan, Hudds and the other teams who genuinely deserve to be up there and can stay there, unlike our neighbours, might get 10 points salary cap breaking fine,which could help us also

Thorman has bags of experience

he said scrum half

Centre, Scrum half, prop, and you could argue second row and fullback.

In what way do you think Hull have given little thought to subsequent years out of interest?