Had a couple of discussions about where we are going wrong on the pitch today and came to the conclusion that the missing ingredient in our side in 'Mongrel'.

Take out Cockayne and, to a lesser degree Aiton and perhaps Mathers, are our side too nice? We have hand picked this group of young men all of whom you would take home to your mothers for tea, but that's not is needed in a RL side.

If you look at just about all the top sides, they have players who really pee you off, because they bend, and often break, the rules. Leeds have Bailey, JJB and even Webb, amongst others, who, as an opposition fan, you tend to despise when playing. Wigan have O'Loughlin and Tomkins and Hock. We used to have the Marchies, Monty and even Solomona, who would 'mix it up' for themselves and for the team.

This current side don't strike me as having any of that play inside them, they just want to 'play it by the rules', which looks nice, but must be even nicer to coach against!

I will reiterate what I said about Sunday's performance - forget 'time to bond' - our side will have cost more to put together than the one we played on Sunday. The opposition were made up of several 'cast-offs' and there was a sprinkling of junior players in their side - are we scared of Greg Eden now - and yet they made our (almost) full first team squad look second rate. If that is progress on our behalf then I don't want it - I want a side that can win a game of RL - especially when the opportunities are presented to us on a plate.

Have our side come off the pitch once looking like they had nothing left to give?

In summary - I want more than the side are giving me and I do not intend to apologise to anyone for doing so!

Your entitled to your opinion TRB, but I can't agree with you on most of it. Why should we forget time to bond, whether we like it or not, you make wholesale changes to your squad and it doesn't all click into place straight from the off. There are 22 games left, yet you already seem to have convinced yourself that this side is not up to it because we have lost 4 games that we could and probably in at least 2 instances should have won. The point I would make is that we are bemoaning the fact we should have won more games. I am pretty sure that last years side would probably have lost all 5 and would have been tonked on a couple of occasions at least.

Last years team probably looked like they had nothing more to give when they came off, because they were woefully conditioned when compared to the other teams and were blowing out of their backsides after 15 mins. I bet if you looked at last seasons results, we shipped a hell of alot of points in the 2nd half.

As to your comment about the Hudds side, what does it matter how much they pay the players? Other than Robinson and Luke George, thats the squad that have played the majority of the season for them due to injuries,, and has got them top of the league. Whether we like to admit it or not the Giants have a very good side which just happens to include a number of young players and players they have signed from other clubs and got the best out of. Had John's try being allowed (which IMO it should have been) to get the score back to 24-20 then we could have been looking at a different scoreline.

I don't want to see us get tonked most weeks and win the odd game but accept it cos players who aren't good enough for week in week out SL are trying their best. I want to see a competitive Wakey side playing an entertaining brand of Rugby as well as putting the effort in. This is what I have seen from this years team, which we shouldn't forget is a pretty good one, considering how late we were in the recruitment process, compared to pretty much everyone else.

So I take it your from the school of thought that a team of random Rugby League players who have never played together don't need time to gel and get to know how each other plays and read the game, interesting.
Agree with Tricky on this.

Yes. We may have lost games and we may have had players making poor and costly decisions, but at times we haveplayed some decent RL. The first half against Bradford we were excellent just lacked composure or we could have been out of sight. Did you see the try disallowed dubiously in that game where we broke from deep and Ali was adjudged to have passed forward? Would have been a corker and something we would not have seen with a set of poorly skilled triers. I'm not keen on how Agar doesn't use the 4th sub until late on it seems pointless and there are other minor gripes I have but overall so far I am not too displeased. Hoping to go to Wire Sunday

We do still need time to bond, theres no doubt about that. What was slightly worrying was there doesn't seem to have been much progress week to week as yet though. In fact if you take the cas friendly and the widnes game we look less cohesive than we did back then. But hopefully it will click again in the next couple of weeks. By the london game we need to be hitting our straps.

I will agree we need a little more agression though, especially up front. We desperately need an 'enforcer' in the pack to get up going forward and sit the opposition on their backsides.

That's a reasoned reply - but I can't agree.

The highlighted thing made me laugh - I got told off on here for making the exact opposite comment! How can you say last years side 'would' have lost - they won all of the last 4 comparable fixtures!

I still agree that this side is better than last years, but it's time to stand up and be counted - they are pro's - they should set about their jobs, which is to win RL games!

Do you want to take Micky Higham of us?

Got aiton and ellis, but i wouldn't turn down carvell

Can see your point TRB but I cannot agree. In my opinion last seasons team would not have come close to beating the 4 teams we have lost to this season. You just cannot compare fixtures last and this season as Teams are different as are the conditions and the circumstances behind the games.

As Tricky has said last seasons Team looked to have given their all because they did but were no where as fit as this seasons Team in my opinon and I think they would have lost these 4 games by a much bigger margin but as I say there is no point comparing.

I take your point about "nice guys" and I feel we have a little common ground there. Where I feel where we are very much lacking, and its been said on here by many, is the lack of forward power and size up front. We need a big nasty (within the laws) prop forward who can drive it in and "hurt" the opposition and put us on the front foot. Southern is not a prop and I feel for him having to take it up like a prop. Our half backs and consequently the rest of the backs are not able to play behind a pack that is dominating or at least matching the oppsition. This has only happened once in the second half against Widnes and we got on top and won the game comfortably. I'm sure we know the problem but the solution is much harder to come by but I'm afraid until we can match teams in the forwards we will continue to struggle.

You know me, I'm as disappointed as anyone when we lose but I genuinely believe that the problem we have can be remedied but the burning question is when and who is available.

I have not mentioned goalkicking as we all know that is a disaster for us but maybe when Collis is fully fit (groin/hamstring) he may be able to improve the situation.

This season is and I hope will be a season when we improve on last but I fear that many of our supporters are already expecting too much. Steady progress year on year is what we want and we will then get to where we want to be and that's contesting the play offs. A 10th place finish will be success for me, anything better will be a bonus.

I can tolerate missing the play-offs if we gave it a good go at getting in them. I'm not sure I will be too chuffed if we are effectively out of the race by early July.

I don't blame Agar. He has been given a certain squad and is trying to make the type of play fit with what we have. I don't know how much the recruitment is down to him, but I see it as a problem in squad building, not coaching. Every successful team has been built on a bit of biff and bash, and we ain't got enough.

Oh yeah, and a kicker, but I think that has been mentioned once or twice (still beggars belief though that we are prepared to go into every match willing to give up about ten points a game).

you were rightly told off mate. last years team did win 4 of the comparable fixtures. plus catalans away, one week after coming out of administration. an earlier poster said they were blowing out of their ar..s after 15 mins. i never saw that. i saw a team that came out fighting and that were forged together in adversity. a team thrown together from acadamies and lower leagues with a few senior players trying to steady the ship ,who inevitably through lack of experience and skill, fell away. the team we
have now imo are far more skilled, stronger, faster and more experienced on the whole but have no bond yet and no senior players such as morrison, korkidas, henderson etc to create that bond that should have been carried from the previous year. as most squads change a few players, we have thrown the baby out with the bath water and lost a lot of the qualities that a partial team change would have kept. anyone that has played a team game will tell you that one of the most important things in a team is spirit, the will to win and comraderie . unfortunately these are things you can't buy, they have to be bred but that takes time which is what we should give the boys. familiarity will breed success but i think there will be a few ups and downs before we get there. together they are stronger.

don't agree with it all TRB but this is the main thing. any coach at any sport will tell you you should have left everything on the pitch and when you leave the pitch you should have nothing left to give. as you say, it isn't happening with some players.

Rubbish its the lack of kicking game, speed and size. Not about having a cup of tea at your grans.

Well I agree with you TRB . Infact I havn't seen any sign of this so called gelling, from what I have witnessed this team isn't looking any better than it did pre season. Infact Sunday was the worst performance of the season IMHO.

They don't need anymore time to Gell they need a great big kick up the Harris

Huddersfield are an established team under an established coach. With the possible exception of Griffin's departure, all they've done is tweaked the team and added quality where they could find it, and have been doing this for the last few seasons. They know how to play together as a unit, have established structures and patterns of play, and in Danny Brough, a player who is good enough to conjure wins for most teams, including poor ones. Added to the fact that we couldn't even buy a win against them in the years when they were garbage, and you have the perfect recipe for another defeat.

I think you arn't grasping what TRB's point is. Its not about structures,patterns,bonding as a unit. Its about good old fashioned in yer face rugby league. Its about you may win but its going to really hurt you if you want to take the two points from us. Its about when the opposition leaves the pitch no matter what the final result says they will know they have had one hell of a battle.

All this gelling mullarky talk is what you hear fom puff ball pundits. We are talking blood and guts rugby league, as yet both TRB and myself appear to be the only ones to notice its missing.

I'm somewhere in the middle on this, i think time is important, and as time progresses we WILL improve, but there is certainly one glaring gap in our squad thats missing and that is a goal kicker, if its Collis and he is not fit to do it, why the hell is he playing, his groin is unlikely to mend (if thats the idea) by playing week in week out.
Bring Morton in to kick move Walshaw or Cockayne or whoever into his position and let the lad rest so he can do his job right.
Whoever you choose to blame Elston or Agar, someone has made an embarrassing mistake and i hope note is duly taken by Glover, in case of any further embarrassing mistakes in the future. Not remedying it, in team selection clearly lands with Agar so he needs to sort it out.
I think as JITB says quite rightly a good old fashioned kick up the is in order and no doubt will have some effect, but i dont think we are lacking in mongrel as the OP suggests, and i would rather have a team playing the game right, than watching a team of cheats like Wigan.

I'm perfectly aware of the point he's trying to make, just highlighting a few of the strengths of the opposition to try and illustrate why a bit of old fashioned bollock-grabbing and tit-tweaking is not going to be enough to beat a good side like that, especially when you're still trying to work out what you want to do with the ball yourselves.

Even good teams need time to find themselves again when faced with big changes. For all the nastiness of Bailey and his partners in crime, Leeds were tripe when McDermott took over. At one stage, they even looked doubtful for the play offs, but went on to win the GF. Do you think they managed this by cranking up the thuggery level an extra notch or two, discovering a bit more "mongrel", or by learning to play the way the new coach wanted them to? It didn't happen overnight, even though they went pretty well in all their pre-season friendlies...

there is plenty of mongrels in belle vue every week, by the looks of some of them they breathe through their gills .

They can't all be pretty boys like you can they?

its just a case of looking normal

some of them i would hesitate to leave near children

when Mutants attack

btw who is that bald guy who stands behind the duggouts. always comes out with some belting comedy comments.

had a special case stood behind me on sunday , some dude whispering come on trin my ear i nearly phoned the police for assault

Think thats the bloke that Beans fell out with.

Seems to me that TRB has completely changed character lately. makes me wonder whats changed, the guy would go to the end of the earth to defend what most would consider indefensible in recent seasons when we have been playing much worse than we currently are. Regardless of how down in the dumps affairs on and off the field where, the club, players and coaching staff would have been defended to the hilt, with plenty of reasoning offered as to why things wouldn't ever really improve until we got a stadium and as a Trinity fan all we could reasonably expect was to be scratching about towards the bottom of the league. Even when we was playing some terrible stuff and moral was at an alltime low it was always phrases like "silk purse out of sows ears" and "rome wasnt built in a day" and the war cry would go out, but just lately when most reasonable fans are getting pretty much what we expected with a whole new squad of players and a whole new coaching set up, its a different story.

Can't put my finger on whats different now compared to then, but something must have..... Maybe an axe to grind because no crumbs are being swept off the top table for feeding on perhaps?

what a legend

he could be having a sympathetic man period.