Well, look into the agenda of Bill Gates and his plan to make millions from a vaccine, it would take too long on here to explain. Follow the money as they say.

However, seasonal flu kills many more than Covid-19 yet no one is talking about that.
650 000 people die yearly of a regular influenza, according to the WHO. So far, approximately 100 000 have died with Covid-19. Even the Italy numbers for Covid-19 are lower than regular influenza death rate for Italy.
Worldometer info illustrates the craze pre March 25, 2020 as regular influenza numbers soar far higher than Covid-19 in the same time span, approximately 230 000 died from malaria. No WHO, “pandemic expert” and billionaire Bill Gates or Western leader “pandemic” alarm over that.

In the same time span, 250 000 died from suicide. No alarm from the WHO on these numbers. Approximately 300 000 died in the same time span from traffic fatalities, 390 000 from HIV and 600 000 from alcohol.
As many as 1 100 000 died from smoking in the same time period. Why did not Bill Gates raise the alarm about that? 2 million died from cancer in the same period, and as much as 2.4 million from hunger.


The US numbers for yearly deaths due to regular flu are, as CNN reported in 2018 around 80 000 dead in the U.S. alone. Yet no one said a word, not even when we, as the RL community over here, were discussing the pro's and cons of allowing US and Canadian team and fans coming over here. Who knew???

Covid-19 has been written about over two billion times so far in the media. Ebola was mentioned 16 million times only. The media focus is extreme.
The fear of death from its grip has caused the biggest market crash in modern history. 

You haven't half got your figures skewed ??
100,000 so far died with Covid ?? There are just short of 500,000 global deaths so far and whilst the virus is just about under control in Europe, deaths globally are still rising.
Yes, "regular" flu ins a huge killer.
However, where do you think the numbers would be had half of the world not "locked down" and the virus been allowed to spread unchallenged ??
Perhaps you need to wait until India and Africa have started to control the virus before stating how "harmless" this thing is.

I totally agree about adding some context and there will no doubt be a review of what has been done well and what should have been done better.
However, I dont think that anyone can argue about the rate at which this virus can take hold.

Whether the virtual shutdown of the ecconomy is a price worth paying to try and save a few hundred thousand lives may be a discussion for another day and your views on this may depend on how you and your family and friends have been affected and there is one thing for certain here, deaths in all countries seem to be heavily understated, as the total deaths this year, compared to other "regular" years are massively higher than the Covid19 figures and it may well be that the numbers are double (or more) than are currently suggested ?

Please see previous post re figures relating to the reporting of Covid deaths, understated ? I think not. Also look into how much "funding" a USA doctor gets for ticking the covid box, you will be surprised.

As for the lockdown preventing infection. The figures in GB are little different from the Scandinavian model, even the architect of all this here in the UK, Professor Neil Ferguson has admitted in a Daily Telegraph article (buried away on page 7, that the "radical Scandinavian policy worked as well as the British policy of shutting down.
Do some research too into the now discredited computer model he used when predicting the spread of C19, you may be surprised.

"virtual shutdown of the economy is a price worth paying to try and save a few hundred thousand lives" You say, it won't, the deaths resulting from job losses, mental illness, suicides, delayed cancer diagnosis, treatment of this and other diseases will be incalculable in the years to come. You know that of course.

I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416
Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ?
I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses.

As for comparisons to Sweden, really ??

The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher.

I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken.
The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.

I find it hard to argue on this Miro when you start with the statement that this is a fake pandemic.
The very fact that so many countries are reporting deaths should show that it isn't made up. When was the last time China, US and Russia all agreed on something? It isn't a local government telling us fibs.

Even if everything you say was true (which it isn't) and we only took the actually tested cases as guaranteed, it would still be a pandemic.

But apart from everything else, trivialising something that is clearly killing people, is just not a sound minded thing to do in my opinion.
By all means bring your views on the moon landings but this is real life and death to real people, some of which are reading your posts. You should think about that.

[iand he has not been seen since [/i

No I don’t need to read anything. I’m a 50+ male and I remember how it used to be. Despite the corruption and almost every ism you can think existing in the police up until the millennium they still managed to fulfil what most ratepayers consider the lie core responsibility.

Yes there are grey areas of course there are and in some ways modern policing is exceptional especially when solving major crimes. I also accept that there were far more bad apples in the old days, I found that out myself after a boozy night when I couldn’t keep my mouth shut. Yet annoyed though I still am I would still on balance prefer it as it was. It may have got a bit tasty around Wakefield in the late 70’s but when you got home you were fairly sure that for the rest of the week you wouldn’t get robbed, your house wouldn’t get burgled, your car would be there in the morning. Most notably if you were being plagued by yobs in your area you knew one phone call would see the police firmly deal with it. Yes there were some areas that were exceptions but not many, now it’s almost anywhere.

Like it or not the police of the past had two things the modern police force has lost. Whose fault it is I’m open to ideas but what can’t be donors is that it’s happened and it will be very difficult to get back.

So what am I on about?

The honest British person used to respect the police. They saw them as there protectors against low life. These same people now se the police as soft and generally useless, more likely to support the criminal than the victim. Doesn’t matter how right or wrong they are it’s how the vast majority see it. The police though not totally to blame are still very much the authors of there own demise.

You simply stopped looking after decent folk, instead attempting to be mates with low life. If I see another policeman fawning over some foul mouthed thug rather than just manhandling him into a van I’ll scream.

There was a time In my younger years when I would always aid an officer, not now, now I feel id end up the one in custody. I hate to say it but now I’d just turn and walk away. Shocking I know but it’s your own fault, you’ve dumped your fan base instead courting popularity with the very people you should be closing down.

The tragedy is that criminals, especially the petty ones are just laughing at you. Trust me they view the average beat copper as a joke and I suspect they are right.

Start being policemen again, arrest baddies especially serial offenders and prosecute to the absolute limit. That is all you need to do to get the law abiding public back on side.

Who'd have known here in Wakefield we'd have all the top expert scientists on diseases, and that they'd all be members of this forum ?????

50+?

add the other 10

Well I got a chemistry set and doctor's set for Christmas!!!! I've now become Boris's official adviser.

Quote ="wrencat1873"I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416 Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ? I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses. As for comparisons to Sweden, really ?? The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher. I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken. The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.'" Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.

Quote ="wrencat1873"I take it that you have heard the figures today for the "differential" in deaths this year, compared to any others ?https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/world-52974416 Can you explain the spike or, is it just one of those things ? I would, as I mentioned in my previous post, that the figures are massively underplayed, primarily to help prevent utter panic among the masses. As for comparisons to Sweden, really ?? The population in Sweden is much younger than in the UK and without anything like the same density, not to mention that they have something like 60% of people living on their own, which is why, despite them not "locking down", they dont have the same numbers as we do here, although their death rate per 100,000 is actually higher. I fully agree regarding some of the consequential deaths. Of course there will be more people dying form other seemingly unrelated deaths but, I would go back to, what would have happened without the lockdown and Northern Ital would be the best example of what can happen without drastic measures being taken. The numbers there were shocking and just imagine how much worse they may have been, without the drastic measures that were imposed.'" Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.

"Moon landing" Whaaaaaa ???? Is that the best you can come up with PopTart. I have gone into quite some detail, quoted WHO, doctors, and this is your best argument??

Please point out the portions of my post that are "trivial" This is a discussion about "Politics and Pandemics" is it not? How about cutting out the insulting innuendoes. What was said earlier? "Am I going to go out and burn down 5G towers? I make little wonder so few people post on this board anymore. And I though you were one of the reasonable types. How wrong was I.

Look.
"Most people, well, a significant portion will not get this virus at all at any point in the epidemic which is going on for a long period of time. Of those who do, some will get the virus without even knowing it.

The will have the virus with no symptoms at all....asymptomatic carriage and we know that happens.
Of those who get the symptoms, the great majority, probably 80% will have a mild or moderate disease. Might be bad enough for them to have to go to bed for a few days, not bad enough for them to to have to go to a doctor.
An unfortunate minority will have to go to hospital and the a minority of those will up having to go to severe and critical care and some of those will sadly die.
But that's a minority...it's 1% or possibly even less than 1% and even in the highest risk groups this is significantly less than 20% i.e. even the great majority of people even the very highest groups if they catch this virus will not die."

I don't get why you can't see how ridiculous you allegations are though.
You haven't actually answered any of my points.
The death toll is massively higher than die of flu.
The death toll of tested cases is clearly into the pandemic levels
'Hundreds' of people protesting in Italy doesn't make the pandemic fake, it just means 'hundreds' of people don't like being told what to do.
WHO say it's a pandemic.

The best you can say on your evidence is that the numbers collected are not necessarily accurate but in no way is it fake. Actual people are dead.
I know two people who work on the Covid ward in Pinders. They think it's real. They worked their off trying to save lives, some they did many the couldn't.

I can't really understand your thought process.

So you are saying there is a pandemic then?
Disease spread world wide is the definition of a pandemic.

You are right on all those numbers you quote. It's just I'm not ok with 1% dieing. Or making the number bigger by spreading it.

Read again, it says "epidemic"
You cannot disagree with "1%" quote.

I read it again. You said it was a "fake pandemic".

I don't disagree that 1% have died. But I don't think it's trivial. That number is a massive number of people.

I never said people reportedly dying was fake. I never dispute figures of lots of people dying. I said, and I don't know how many times I have to repeat this, I said the report of a worldwide "Pandemic" dude to C-19 was fake, or if you prefer, a scam. A scam to realize a political and economic agenda using seasonal flu figures (e.g. 80.000 in the USA in 201icon_cool.gif to carry out that agenda.
Does that help.
By the way, I put my points across first so answer mine, you know how to debate don't you ? first. . Re the 2 people you know at Pinders, did you see my quotes from Doctors re the mis reporting of covid? Did you research how much per patient USA doctors get for ticking the covid box as opposed to the flu box? Doctors don't trust doctors so why should we?

Not the text you were quoting (previous post.)

So tell me, how many is not trivial, and do we have a lockdown every year for ever ? Ever seen the annual flu death rate?

Re 80, 000 2018 flu deaths in the USA. Where was your, or anyone else's argument that we should not admit North American teams and fans into the UK Rugby League. By your logic that is the best argument ever, never mind the lack of players. Go on then, argue that.

So you lock down and Boris fans, be careful what you wish for.

We cannot protect ourselves for ever, sh*t happens, we deal with it.

Without taking your post apart your last paragraph sums it up, policemen maybe what you want but go back to the Peelian principles of the 1820's that are still good today. Baddies as you call them get arrested every day. The police are not responsible for prosecuting criminals the wider Judicial system is.

Anyway you have your opinion I have my experience no point ping ponging about it.

I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake.

I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates.

What I can say is
8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers.

The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher.

Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse.

In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial.

It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same.
I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it.
My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially.

There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet.

In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should.

And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.

Quote ="Miro"Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.'" Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??

Quote ="Miro"Well, you cannot have it both ways. You make excuses for Sweden yet ignore the facts of an aging population and the terrible pollution problems of northern Italy, very similar to China as it happens.. You say the figures are "massively underplayed" you have a source for this? At least I quote real doctors. You quote the BBC (lol) who are refusing to interview many of the doctors and scientists who oppose the lock down etc. yet at the same time reveal they, or someone, are telling porkies over the actual figure. Up or Down..trustworthy are they? Apparently, by your statement NOT. Oh yes, it would appear many Italians donot agree with you. https://theduran.com/enraged-italians-a ... c-as-scam/ Meet the ‘orange vests’ Hundreds of Italian demonstrators gathered in Rome’s Piazza del Popolo on Tuesday, ditching their masks in a protest against the Italian government’s lockdown restrictions aimed at controlling the spread of COVID-19. The group, which calls themselves the ‘Orange Vests,’ is led by retired Carabinieri general Antonio Pappalardo, who doesn’t believe children should be made to wear masks, according to TIME. Refusing to wear a mask himself, Pappalardo said “These lungs mine. I will take care of my lungs. Breathing is sacred.” The people packing the square didn’t adhere to social-distancing guidelines set by the government. Pappalardo portrayed such containment measures as an infringement of freedom. Other speakers at the protest asserted that the pandemic ‘’never existed’’ and alleged that politicians had played it up to enhance their own powers. –TIME Elsewhere in Rome, opposition leaders, including League Party chief Matteo Salvini, marched on Tuesday to demand that the government resign. Unveiling an Italian flag along the Via del Corso, Rome’s central artery, the gathering soon turned into a procession led by Salvini and two other party leaders: Giorgia Meloni of the right-wing Brothers of Italy, and Antonio Tajani, who co-founded former PM Silvio Berlusconi’s -right Forza Italia, according to France24. According to a Facebook post by Salvini, the march was “a symbolic gesture to make heard the voices of the citizens who do not give up.'" Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??

Quote ="PopTart"I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates. =#BF40BFWhat I can say is 8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers. The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher. Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse. In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial. It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same. I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially. There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet. In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should. And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.'" This tends to destroy the first part of your response. And it answers the comment on "flu has a vaccine" I again I provide links, Alex Matthews-King Health Correspondent The Independent Friday 30 November 2018 The flu vaccine’s failure to protect against some of the key strains of the infection contributed to more than 50,000 “extra” deaths in England and Wales last winter, according to data from the Office of National Statistics. It was the worst winter on record for more than 40 years, with the 1975-76 season being the last time deaths climbed so high above the expected levels. The NHS was rocked by a record winter crisis in early 2018, with a massive rise in flu cases and sub-zero temperatures triggered by the Beast from the East storm, which added further to death rates. serious "Aussie flu", officials said in January that the vaccine which had been widely used was not effective against some of the more prevalent strains of the virus affecting the UK. The impact on death rates was apparent as early as March, when experts warned the government must “urgently investigate” a spike of 10,000 deaths in the first weeks of 2018. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 60496.html You say..." if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. What a ridicules statement. Do you ever give your posts any serious thought? Rugby players die on the field in our sport, as we at Trinity well know. So, it's unlikely those deaths would have occurred had the players not been under the strain of training and playing rugby, after all, it has a tremendous strain upon the heart. Now, what's your argument to carry on supporting rugby. I know quite a lot of older players, players in their later years suffering from Alzheimer's. Seems quite disproportionate to me though I can't prove it but all those wacks around the head and the studies from soccer re heading a ball tell us something.. Again, if banning rugby saves just one death or one case of alzhhiemers it's worth it in your view ? I guess you won't be going to Belle Vue anytime soon, if ever.

Quote ="PopTart"I still don't really get your point about what exactly you think is fake. I'm not a doctor so I can't tell you whether someone is misrepresenting death certificates. =#BF40BFWhat I can say is 8-10k die of flu every year in UK. Predominantly in care homes and the elderly and predominantly in the winter months. - there is no doubt that some that have died, would probably have died of the flu, but we are not even at that stage of the year yet so flu hasn't even hit us so can't really be attributed to the covid numbers. The Who have said we won't know the full affects of Covid until we can look at year on year figures but currently, everybody's death rate is higher. Flu has a vaccine, covid does not. So an outbreak of flu can be handled by GPs . Covid is filling hospitals, which impact other patients so making the affects even worse. In answer to your question what number is not trivial, of course I can't answer but any unnecessary deaths is not trivial. It seems you are upset with the lockdown. Personally I'm ok with it. I realise not everyone is the same. I can't go on holiday and I can't go in to my office and my kid is not in school but I can work from home and home school my kid and if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. My wife's business is suffering but she's found a way to make the best of it and the government are supporting her financially. There is no vaccine so no one is making money out of it yet. In terms of your question of whether we should lock down for everything every year....no not every year but If we are predicting to have over 40k deaths in uk in 6 months in lockdown, which logically says we'd have more if we weren't in lockdown, then I'd say yes we should. And its easy to say s happens when it isn't you.'" This tends to destroy the first part of your response. And it answers the comment on "flu has a vaccine" I again I provide links, Alex Matthews-King Health Correspondent The Independent Friday 30 November 2018 The flu vaccine’s failure to protect against some of the key strains of the infection contributed to more than 50,000 “extra” deaths in England and Wales last winter, according to data from the Office of National Statistics. It was the worst winter on record for more than 40 years, with the 1975-76 season being the last time deaths climbed so high above the expected levels. The NHS was rocked by a record winter crisis in early 2018, with a massive rise in flu cases and sub-zero temperatures triggered by the Beast from the East storm, which added further to death rates. serious "Aussie flu", officials said in January that the vaccine which had been widely used was not effective against some of the more prevalent strains of the virus affecting the UK. The impact on death rates was apparent as early as March, when experts warned the government must “urgently investigate” a spike of 10,000 deaths in the first weeks of 2018. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/heal ... 60496.html You say..." if not going on holiday will stop even 1 person dying I think it's worth it. What a ridicules statement. Do you ever give your posts any serious thought? Rugby players die on the field in our sport, as we at Trinity well know. So, it's unlikely those deaths would have occurred had the players not been under the strain of training and playing rugby, after all, it has a tremendous strain upon the heart. Now, what's your argument to carry on supporting rugby. I know quite a lot of older players, players in their later years suffering from Alzheimer's. Seems quite disproportionate to me though I can't prove it but all those wacks around the head and the studies from soccer re heading a ball tell us something.. Again, if banning rugby saves just one death or one case of alzhhiemers it's worth it in your view ? I guess you won't be going to Belle Vue anytime soon, if ever.

Quote ="wrencat1873"Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, =#FF8000there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??'" See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!

Quote ="wrencat1873"Equally there have been many, many "end the lockdown" protests in the states, including New York, where the numbers have been horrendous. Ultimately, we all make our own judgements and live (hopefully) with the consequences. You and I have differing views on this, by some distance and although I dont believe the handling of the virus has been handled well in the UK, I just cant go along with the conspiracy theory. Every government that has "locked down" their country, volunteering a deep recession, will damage their own credibility and probably lose power on the back of it and while all governments do crazy things, deliberately getting themselves voted out certainly isn't one of them. I dont see where you have explained the "excess deaths" anywhere, which taking into account the number of deaths caused by "regular" flu, which are already in the year on year figures, =#FF8000there is a bloody huge spike this year. If this is not due to Covid19, then how would you explain or, are you suggesting that the deaths and numbers of bodies dont exist ? Also, you fail to mention the numerous medical staff, who have stayed away from their own families, so as not to spread the virus to their loved ones ?? maybe they have got it wrong too ??'" See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!

Quote ="Miro"See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!'" Thanks for the links to the "leaked" German reports. As you will appreciate, it's going to take some time to translate and read the thing You still dont wish to explain the excess deaths in the UK though ? and the spike that you mention surely is included in the 5 year average, therefore meaning that thing as are even worse than the figures being portrayed. I'm ok with the conspiracy stuff and good on ya for sharing it with us and there is little argument that "lockdown" will indeed had severe consequences in various different directions. The list of negative impact is long and far reaching and the full effects may not be known for many, many years. Back to the fundamental question. Why on earth would any government put themselves at risk of deselection as part of a "scam" ? There are far clever people than you or I that will be top of any valid counter claim against the virus.

Quote ="Miro"See my last post. You explain the excess deaths there...no jumping on those figures by governments back then...why not? They could easily have done. Did those medical staff stay away in 2018? Probably not because there was no project fear day in, day out on the BBC, SKY, CH 4 and 5, and the rest of the MSM. From a scientific panel appointed by the German the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. The question you need to ask is why, when commissioning this report, the German government then try to suppress it. You tell me. Germany’s federal government and mainstream media are engaged in damage control after a report that challenges the established Corona narrative leaked from the interior ministry. The 93-pages report titled “Analysis of the Crisis Management” has been drafted by a scientific panel appointed by the interior ministry and composed by external medical experts from several German universities. https://www.ichbinanderermeinung.de/Dokument93.pdf https://www.strategic-culture.org/news/ ... m3fNc7kgiE Some of the report key passages are: The dangerousness of Covid-19 was overestimated: probably at no point did the danger posed by the new virus go beyond the normal level. The people who die from Corona are essentially those who would statistically die this year, because they have reached the end of their lives and their weakened bodies can no longer cope with any random everyday stress (including the approximately 150 viruses currently in circulation). Worldwide, within a quarter of a year, there has been no more than 250,000 deaths from Covid-19, compared to 1.5 million deaths [25,100 in Germany during the influenza wave 2017/18. The danger is obviously no greater than that of many other viruses. There is no evidence that this was more than a false alarm. A reproach could go along these lines: During the Corona crisis the State has proved itself as one of the biggest producers of Fake News. So far, so bad. But it gets worse. The report focuses on the “manifold and heavy consequences of the Corona measures” and warns that these are “grave”. More people are dying because of state-imposed Corona-measures than they are being killed by the virus. On May 23rd the German newspaper Das Bild titled: “Dramatic consequences of the Corona-Measures: 52,000 Cancer Ops delayed.” Inside, a leading medical doctor warns that “we will feel the side-effects of the Corona crisis for years”. YOU TELL ME WRENCAT1873 !!!!'" Thanks for the links to the "leaked" German reports. As you will appreciate, it's going to take some time to translate and read the thing You still dont wish to explain the excess deaths in the UK though ? and the spike that you mention surely is included in the 5 year average, therefore meaning that thing as are even worse than the figures being portrayed. I'm ok with the conspiracy stuff and good on ya for sharing it with us and there is little argument that "lockdown" will indeed had severe consequences in various different directions. The list of negative impact is long and far reaching and the full effects may not be known for many, many years. Back to the fundamental question. Why on earth would any government put themselves at risk of deselection as part of a "scam" ? There are far clever people than you or I that will be top of any valid counter claim against the virus.