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| Quote ="DAVE@CAS1990"This may sound a little ignorant as I'm not entirely "clued-up"
but surely, when WTW wrote off their debts, they screwed over any investors who had money owed.
If they do the same again and AG starts up a new company, won't it have a detrimental affect on future investment?
....that's not me being s tool, it's genuinely how I'd see it but I dunno if it's entirely correct as it seems pretty basic'"
From the bits I've read, AG settled the RL related debts before the RFL would approve his ownership, he also paid some other creditors. One particular company has taken advantage of this 'good will gesture' and is persuing the new company for the monies owed to the from the old company even though 1873 is under no obligation to do so.
The HMRC winding up order has been resolved according to AG and the Macron one is a dispute. We'll know more this Thursday I guess. |
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| Quote ="Wollo-Wollo-Wollo-Wayoo"Hope your posting all your thoughts straight onto the Cas forums. Save them copy and pasting them.'"
In the words of Gandalf the Grey - "Keep it secret, keep it save". |
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| Quote ="Khlav Kalash"From the bits I've read, AG settled the RL related debts before the RFL would approve his ownership, he also paid some other creditors. One particular company has taken advantage of this 'good will gesture' and is persuing the new company for the monies owed to the from the old company even though 1873 is under no obligation to do so.
The HMRC winding up order has been resolved according to AG and the Macron one is a dispute. We'll know more this Thursday I guess.'"
Sorry i just dont buy all this BS.
If AG has left himself wide open to be chased for debts by the old company,hes a fool and the lawyers that drew up the contracts of purchase are incompetent.
If 1873 is [uunder no legal obligation [/uit ends there.
So all this comes down to what you believe.
We heard all the excuses about the ccjs earlier in the year,ranging from disputes over quality,service,wrong addresses and overlooked,when in reality it appears to have been a case of quite simply no money to pay the bills.
We had supporters suggesting it was an ok way to run a business racking up ccj after ccj,with some of the more ridiculous comments ranging from......."Its the best way to settle a dispute" to "Its easy for people to register a ccj against you".When the reality was staring people in the face.
Im not being wise after the event,but in my opinion this pack of cards has been teetering on the edge of collapse for months.Im even still optimistic that someone will pull it out of the fire,but in my personal opinion AG bit off more than he can chew. |
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| Quote ="Wollo-Wollo-Wollo-Wayoo"Hope your posting all your thoughts straight onto the Cas forums. Save them copy and pasting them.'"
To be honest don't give a flock what Cas think, they have 5x more debts than us even if it is to just one person. More interested in how we're going to sort ourselves out and be a viable forse in sl. |
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| Quote ="mole rat"To be honest don't give a flock what Cas think, they have 5x more debts than us even if it is to just one person. More interested in how we're going to sort ourselves out and be a viable forse in sl.'"
You are wrong on a couple of points there Mole Rat. Cas Tigers debts of just over 2 million have been built up over a period of decades. WTW have racked up debts of 1.5 million in 2 seasons. That hardly equates to 5X more. Our debts are not only to one person either - granted Jack Fulton is the main one but there are others - Richard Wright been another. |
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| Quote ="TURFEDOUT"Sorry i just dont buy all this BS.
If AG has left himself wide open to be chased for debts by the old company,hes a fool and the lawyers that drew up the contracts of purchase are incompetent.
If 1873 is [uunder no legal obligation [/uit ends there.
So all this comes down to what you believe.
We heard all the excuses about the ccjs earlier in the year,ranging from disputes over quality,service,wrong addresses and overlooked,when in reality it appears to have been a case of quite simply no money to pay the bills.
We had supporters suggesting it was an ok way to run a business racking up ccj after ccj,with some of the more ridiculous comments ranging from......."Its the best way to settle a dispute" to "Its easy for people to register a ccj against you".When the reality was staring people in the face.
Im not being wise after the event,but in my opinion this pack of cards has been teetering on the edge of collapse for months.Im even still optimistic that someone will pull it out of the fire,but in my personal opinion AG bit off more than he can chew.'"
As I said, thats from what I have read, I haven't a clue whats going on. |
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I wouldn't have though AG would pay anyone unless he was obliged to do so - unless further investment could be generated from keeping "good will" payments.....
I dunno, I don't understand how this can happen. It just stems from sloppy management
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| Quote ="Tigerade"You are wrong on a couple of points there Mole Rat. Cas Tigers debts of just over 2 million have been built up over a period of decades. WTW have racked up debts of 1.5 million in 2 seasons. That hardly equates to 5X more. Our debts are not only to one person either - granted Jack Fulton is the main one but there are others - Richard Wright been another.'"
This was a point spectacularly missed by that BBC report by George Riley at the start of the season. Yes, a club may be in debt, but a debt to a director (such a Fulton) isn't one to worry about as the likelihood of it ever being called in is miniscule. It's like Chelsea on a tiny scale! |
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| Quote ="t-r-i-n-i-t-y"This was a point spectacularly missed by that BBC report by George Riley at the start of the season. Yes, a club may be in debt, but a debt to a director (such a Fulton) isn't one to worry about as the likelihood of it ever being called in is miniscule. It's like Chelsea on a tiny scale!'"
As said. Jack Fulton loves the club and won't ever call on his debt if he feared it would have a detrimental effect. What he is trying to do is make the club sustainable by getting the right people in to increase revenue streams to save him pumping more money in
The money to Jack has built up over about the past 10 years (We made decent profits in the NL) and we haven't racked up 1.5 Mil in 2 years. That is worrying. Not from a gloating point of view. It smacks of bad management.
And baring in mind we own our own ground as well is taken into consideration. We don't do too bad |
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| Quote ="TURFEDOUT"Sorry i just dont buy all this BS.
If AG has left himself wide open to be chased for debts by the old company,hes a fool and the lawyers that drew up the contracts of purchase are incompetent.
If 1873 is [uunder no legal obligation [/uit ends there.
So all this comes down to what you believe.
We heard all the excuses about the ccjs earlier in the year,ranging from disputes over quality,service,wrong addresses and overlooked,when in reality it appears to have been a case of quite simply no money to pay the bills.
We had supporters suggesting it was an ok way to run a business racking up ccj after ccj,with some of the more ridiculous comments ranging from......."Its the best way to settle a dispute" to "Its easy for people to register a ccj against you".When the reality was staring people in the face.
Im not being wise after the event,but in my opinion this pack of cards has been teetering on the edge of collapse for months.Im even still optimistic that someone will pull it out of the fire,but in my personal opinion AG bit off more than he can chew.'"
Well I was wise before the event and don't I feel good about it - not.
I said WTRLFC like a number of RL clubs was unsustainable in the new economic world we live in and that AG would die the same long horrible death Ted did. Of course I was lampooned for not being riddled with blind optimism but hey.
What I can't get my head around is the timescale and only the Cas fan has picked up on that. Two years to run a fresh club to the brink of bankruptcy and despite what people chose to believe (myself included at the start) CCJ's do generally indicate a company on the brink of going under. Two years to get into this state honestly baffles me - even taking everything into account and being generous with the new club I'm stuffed as to how they have done that - especially off the back of good gates and various initiatives. Remember that 1 million debt was posted pre Eric France which is the most obvious disaster we have had.
Anyone who can say what has happened knows way mere than me.  |
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Same lot running the club under Glover that ran it under Richardson = same result.
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| Quote ="kiwiballs"Same lot running the club under Glover that ran it under Richardson = same result.'"
Should the worst happen I doubt JE will get another gig at a RL club. |
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Only if/when we have new owners he will!
On a note about the debt it is possible this had not just been built up in the past 2 years but as part of the legacy debt? Firstly it would be impossible to borrow that sort of money in the current climate and there is no way we could owe hmrc that much in two years given the turnover so vat cannot be that high and wages so tax and NICs cannot be as well
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| Some of the previous debt was agreed to be paid off so it may be part of that, however I fail to see confirmation anywhere that the debt is £1.5m
I know last years accounts showed a loss of approx. £1m and we are around 1/2 way through the following year so it's not totally unfeasible that we have accumulated an extra £500k but I can't find anywhere in print that it has been confirmed that this is the amount we owe, the only place I've seen it is on here, the cas forum and the nut job funny farm forum.
Can someone point me in the direction of official confirmation of our current debt please?  |
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| Quote ="financialtimes"on here, the cas forum and the nut job funny farm forum.
'"
Aren't these three almost becoming one of the same?  |
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My suspicion is that the whole aim of the club is to keep the plates spinning until Newmarket comes off, and from then on they can attract better crowds (hopefully), better corporate sponsorship, income-generating ways of using the stadium, all at a lower cost than running Belle Vue. It is something of a coincidence, however, that the new company is formed at the time of Super League re-organisation, and so my guess is that it is a safety net in the event of either Newmarket delays being too long for the club to handle or relegation at the end of next year, so that they can rebuild in Newmarket in a lower division but without being hindered by top flight debts.
I'm only guessing, but is there a possibility that this is an example of foresight and good management?
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| Quote ="Disney cat"I also wasn't asked for mine last week but if they would have refused to sell me one it would have been my fault for not taking notice of what they put on the website.'"
So you feel that me still having the money is better than the club having it . CLOWN. |
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| Quote ="financialtimes"Some of the previous debt was agreed to be paid off so it may be part of that, however I fail to see confirmation anywhere that the debt is £1.5m
I know last years accounts showed a loss of approx. £1m and we are around 1/2 way through the following year so it's not totally unfeasible that we have accumulated an extra £500k but I can't find anywhere in print that it has been confirmed that this is the amount we owe, the only place I've seen it is on here, the cas forum and the nut job funny farm forum.
Can someone point me in the direction of official confirmation of our current debt please?
'"
Sorry that might be me - I was assuming the tax bill and a few others were not included in that original 1 million figure and that it's now nearer 1.5 million. May be wrong but I can't imagine that figure has stayed the same and working on the principle the CCJ's etc are an indicator I guess it's gone up not down.
Truth is AG may be playing a blinder or we may be in big bother I really don't know. What I do know is this is exactly the kind of thing the old regime did and that didn't end well. However the speculation and negativity is doing the club immense damage and although it may not be AG's fault only AG can sort both the problems and the perceptions. |
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| Quote ="kiwiballs"Same lot running the club under Glover that ran it under Richardson = same result.'"
I know what you mean but it doesn't let Glover off the hook - the buck stops with him. |
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Quote ="Topcat13"Together we are SKINT....'"
There is no change there then it still doesn't stop me enjoying my rugby on a sunday afternoon..... you know what they say 'don't let the =#FF0000EDIT grind you down'...
We start getting it right on the pitch and then money issues spring up again. 
Not bad for a team with 2/3 key players missing & only 2 interchange subs available second half, pushing the Super League champions all the way at their ground, losing by just 2 points and also giving them their highest crowd attendance of the year at 18,300. ....'the biggest rugby league crowd of the weekend in either Super League or the NRL witnessed last Friday’s West Yorkshire derby.'
Lets hope its a capacity crowd at Belle Vue to increase the coffers. I know it won't clear £1.5 million debt but we also need to have more of those promotional days against the smaller clubs at Belle Vue like the Broncos where the crowd went up to 8000 instead of 5000. They need to be targeted each season and then announce them a couple of weeks before each game to increase revenue. WTW marketing staff need to be paid for results.... maybe a revenue Star Award suggestion scheme etc for fans to help with innovation in this area to help appeal to a broader cross section of business to make it attractive for sponsorship? A WTW Loyalty VISA card like some football clubs have where a % goes to the club?
Something needs to be done differently.....
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=421878&tsmp=1374519189 |
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Quote ="Topcat13"Together we are SKINT....'"
There is no change there then it still doesn't stop me enjoying my rugby on a sunday afternoon..... you know what they say 'don't let the =#FF0000EDIT grind you down'...
We start getting it right on the pitch and then money issues spring up again.
Not bad for a team with 2/3 key players missing & only 2 interchange subs available second half, pushing the Super League champions all the way at their ground, losing by just 2 points and also giving them their highest crowd attendance of the year at 18,300. ....'the biggest rugby league crowd of the weekend in either Super League or the NRL witnessed last Friday’s West Yorkshire derby.'
Lets hope its a capacity crowd at Belle Vue to increase the coffers. I know it won't clear £1.5 million debt but we also need to have more of those promotional days against the smaller clubs at Belle Vue like the Broncos where the crowd went up to 8000 instead of 5000. They need to be targeted each season and then announce them a couple of weeks before each game to increase revenue. WTW marketing staff need to be paid for results.... maybe a revenue Star Award suggestion scheme etc for fans to help with innovation in this area to help appeal to a broader cross section of business to make it attractive for sponsorship? A WTW Loyalty VISA card like some football clubs have where a % goes to the club?
Something needs to be done differently.....
viewtopic.php?f=33&t=421878&tsmp=1374519189 | |
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"I'm only guessing, but is there a possibility that this is an example of foresight and good management?'"
If it's preparation for a pre-pack, then it's only another example of directors and shareholders salvaging what they can, which in most cases is a considerable amount of their own money, to be allowed to start again. Foresight and good management would never have led to this situation in the first place. |
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These are the amounts of CCJ's that are still owed however the tax bill is not listed but they would be foolish to wind up a company that has made a payment proposal.
In the last 24 months there have been:
3 unsatisfied CCJ(s) at a cost of £15,623
6 satisfied CCJ(s) at a cost of £39,240
The last unsatisfied CCJ was issued on 24 May 2013
Issued Description Value
26 Jun 2013 Winding Up Petition
05 Jun 2013 Winding Up Petition
24 May 2013 County Court Judgement £2,903 NORTHAMPTON
08 Apr 2013 County Court Judgement £4,231 NORTHAMPTON
27 Feb 2013 Satisfied CCJ £4,614 GLOUCESTER
23 Feb 2013 County Court Judgement £8,489 NORTHAMPTON
21 Feb 2013 Satisfied CCJ £4,877 NORTHAMPTON
30 Jan 2013 Satisfied CCJ £3,938 NORTHAMPTON
19 Jan 2013 Satisfied CCJ £10,001 WAKEFIELD
08 Jan 2013 Satisfied CCJ £9,932 NORTHAMPTON
29 Nov 2012 Satisfied CCJ £5,878 NORTHAMPTON
12 Nov 2012 Winding Up Petition Rescind
27 Sep 2012 Winding Up Petition
The accounts ending 31st January 2013 will show how you are doing and you started with debts of nearly £ 1.3 million which is a lot for a new company. Good luck.
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So where did you get the info regarding£1.3 million from Illy?
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| Quote ="JINJER"So where did you get the info regarding£1.3 million from Illy?'"
That was the amount on the recorded accounts wasn't it? |
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