[quote="Droopy":3kdjep53][youtube][/youtube]My point exactly, other than McMeeken, our other starting props are either unproven at SL or have a point to prove. It does worry me. I was disappointed when Bowden signed elsewhere because whilst he isn’t a world beater, he is robust and experienced enough to be a key part of the team. You then look at if one of our first 4 props is injured who steps up? Bain and Vangana are both inexperienced and probably a little lightweight. Storton, probably would be my preference to step up but isn’t a natural prop. So I go back to my previous post, even though it wouldn’t be an exciting or inspiring signing, an experienced and robust SL prop is needed in my opinion.[/quote:3kdjep53] Doesn’t even need to be SL imho. A fringe player or an ambitious young championship player would do fine for me. So long as the attitude is right and they are robust, that would be fine. Bit like a Rodwell, but a U.K. version, won’t be as good but still decent. Saw a few tough lads last year who’d do ok without ever being first choice.

[quote="FSW":1tqujyij]Singleton was really poor when he played for us on loan. Really didn't want to play for us. I wouldn't want him now.[/quote:1tqujyij] Not many did at that point. Players grow up, he’d do as cover so long as he was willing to accept that.

[quote="asmadasa":14fhmzbc]If Leeds are in for him aswell though it looks like Trinity will be outbid and he’ll go there …[/quote:14fhmzbc] Do not think it comes down to out bid , Like Hall played at Leeds most of is career

If he accepts being here as cover I don't want him. He's a starting prop for a playoff team. He should be aiming to be our best prop

[quote="vastman":3qojz2fd]Doesn’t even need to be SL imho. A fringe player or an ambitious young championship player would do fine for me. So long as the attitude is right and they are robust, that would be fine. Bit like a Rodwell, but a U.K. version, won’t be as good but still decent. Saw a few tough lads last year who’d do ok without ever being first choice.[/quote:3qojz2fd] Like Harvey Makin ?? https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... d-30656477

[quote="vastman":3qojz2fd]Doesn’t even need to be SL imho. A fringe player or an ambitious young championship player would do fine for me. So long as the attitude is right and they are robust, that would be fine. Bit like a Rodwell, but a U.K. version, won’t be as good but still decent. Saw a few tough lads last year who’d do ok without ever being first choice.[/quote:3qojz2fd] Like Harvey Makin ?? https://www.examinerlive.co.uk/sport/ru ... d-30656477

I'd take Singleton, but I think Chris Hill could do a job for 12 months as well.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":1p071h77]I'd take Singleton, but I think Chris Hill could do a job for 12 months as well.[/quote:1p071h77] Agreed. Still goes very well. I’d take either in that role as disruptor who can do big minutes if needed who may not look spectacular but does the basics well and is hurtful in defence. Their experience would also be very useful. Wigan showed last year how important it is to have quality in depth in the props and it will be more important this year with the concussion/head knock protocols and teams being expected to manage minutes of their players.

[quote="PopTart":2097w74c]If he accepts being here as cover I don't want him. He's a starting prop for a playoff team. He should be aiming to be our best prop[/quote:2097w74c] Oh do give it a rest for once. You know exactly what I meant so stop the agent provocateur stuff, I wouldn’t mind if you were any good at it. He comes as back up FACT and he will have to accept that to start with FACT. If he goes onto prove himself worthy and becomes first choice that’s fantastic, I’d love that. What he can’t do is swagger in and think he’s number one based on past achievements and then sulk when he isn’t first on the list. You earn your change or are you claiming otherwise?

[quote="vastman":ynxuda1x]Pitts started his SL career with us as a prop so he has the knowledge. However I agree he’s not a prop anymore, he’s actually a perfect example of the arms race where player size is concerned. In the late 2000s he was adequate, now he’s just not big enough imho.[/quote:ynxuda1x] I’m pretty sure Pitts has never played prop other than a few handful of games to cover. Also I don’t recall him propping in his first few seasons in 2008. He came through as a 13 and second row but mainly 13 if memory serves. He played more at second row as time moved on but has transitioned back to 13 now again. He's never been a prop if I remember correctly.

[quote="vastman":1ej2ha03]Doesn’t even need to be SL imho. A fringe player or an ambitious young championship player would do fine for me. So long as the attitude is right and they are robust, that would be fine. Bit like a Rodwell, but a U.K. version, won’t be as good but still decent. Saw a few tough lads last year who’d do ok without ever being first choice.[/quote:1ej2ha03] The likes of Walmsley for Saints, Harrison for Wire, Batchelor for Saints and even Keegan Hirst for us shows there may be some in there who could thrive in full time training. Maybe there’s someone there. I’m surprised that we haven’t picked a project from the championship up.

[quote="Trojan Horse":1sdpohon]The likes of Walmsley for Saints, Harrison for Wire, Batchelor for Saints and even Keegan Hirst for us shows there may be some in there who could thrive in full time training. Maybe there’s someone there. I’m surprised that we haven’t picked a project from the championship up.[/quote:1sdpohon] Off the top of my head I can't think of one forward that played against us last season that would be worth a punt. Doro at Bradford looked decent but he's at Hull KR now.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":2bmtzqoz]Off the top of my head I can't think of one forward that played against us last season that would be worth a punt. Doro at Bradford looked decent but he's at Hull KR now.[/quote:2bmtzqoz] I thought Doro was poor. He ran hard but made zero post contact metres and got folded in the tackle. He won’t be SL ready for a couple years but I don’t rate him despite the media hype. Surprisingly, there was a forward who played us a few times for different teams out on loan. Had a good pair of hands too. Think it was Sammy Kibula.

I take your point, but I can’t remember Wigan rotating through many props. Byrne, Thompson, Havard, Dupree, Hill, and Cooper for a handful of games before he got injured. They have Eseh, Makin, and Chan too but I can’t remember any of them playing for Wigan last year. As Trojan often says, we should only sign players who would improve our squad. We’ve got Atoni, McMeeken, Rodwell, Uele, Vagana, Bain, Shaw. Now Chris Hill would certainly improve our squad for a year - his play the ball speed and wrestle is still up there with the best - but that would probably prevent Bain and Shaw getting game time. Singleton? I honestly don’t think he’s as good a player as our first five options. Runs and tackles hard but makes some poor decisions both sides of the ball. What is propping? Hate (love) to bring it up again, but as I see it in the modern game there’s no difference between a prop and a loose forward. I understand that 30 years ago a loose was a dynamic, hardworking, ball handling forward. And 10 years ago a loose became a prop but with good hands who organised other forwards. But now (with a few exceptions like Oledzski and Walmsley) 8,10 and 13 have the same skillset. No SL team should have a prop who can’t set up a play or tip the ball out the back accurately. If Cozza, Bain, or Pitts plays prop, and Rodwell or McMeeken plays 13, you wouldn’t notice apart from at kickoffs. Here for the debate!

I guess out Champ pickup project is Jayden Myers. I didn’t see any standout props last year. I saw some really good hardworking Championship props (Roman Dixon for Dewsbury - signed for Fax, Lambert Belmas at Toulouse, Titus Gwaze at Sheffield) but they all have their limits

[*][quote="Butcher":at4di76n]I take your point, but I can’t remember Wigan rotating through many props. Byrne, Thompson, Havard, Dupree, Hill, and Cooper for a handful of games before he got injured. They have Eseh, Makin, and Chan too but I can’t remember any of them playing for Wigan last year. As Trojan often says, we should only sign players who would improve our squad. We’ve got Atoni, McMeeken, Rodwell, Uele, Vagana, Bain, Shaw. Now Chris Hill would certainly improve our squad for a year - his play the ball speed and wrestle is still up there with the best - but that would probably prevent Bain and Shaw getting game time. Singleton? I honestly don’t think he’s as good a player as our first five options. Runs and tackles hard but makes some poor decisions both sides of the ball. What is propping? Hate (love) to bring it up again, but as I see it in the modern game there’s no difference between a prop and a loose forward. I understand that 30 years ago a loose was a dynamic, hardworking, ball handling forward. And 10 years ago a loose became a prop but with good hands who organised other forwards. But now (with a few exceptions like Oledzski and Walmsley) 8,10 and 13 have the same skillset. No SL team should have a prop who can’t set up a play or tip the ball out the back accurately. If Cozza, Bain, or Pitts plays prop, and Rodwell or McMeeken plays 13, you wouldn’t notice apart from at kickoffs. Here for the debate![/quote:at4di76n] You forgot Mago, Ellis and Walters too. In a salary capped sport to have 11 players who can play prop in your squad was seen as very unusual. Byrne, Dupree and Mago were dropped for significant periods and Cooper injured for most of the season. I think teams carry props that are more middles these days but there are still out and out props out there and most teams carry at least 1 or 2. Uele and Atoni are Props, not middles. Fafita was a prop, Singleton and Hill are props not middles. I’d say a middle is capable of bigger minutes but lacks the impact of a prop. They are also usually more mobile. Ball playing and more importantly decision making is also key certainly the latter which tends to be the difference between a prop and a middle along with a minimum of 60 mins consistently week in week out. Beyond 2025 I hope that Rodwell takes the 13 shirt as I think that is his best position, but for that to happen we would need to recruit props/middles in the next off season.

[quote="Trojan Horse":20rw5qrd]I thought Doro was poor. He ran hard but made zero post contact metres and got folded in the tackle. He won’t be SL ready for a couple years but I don’t rate him despite the media hype. Surprisingly, there was a forward who played us a few times for different teams out on loan. Had a good pair of hands too. Think it was Sammy Kibula.[/quote:20rw5qrd] I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.

Spot on with Mago, that was an oversight. Might be wrong but don’t think Walters lined up at prop (he was open about not wanting to do that like he did at Leeds). All good points, but why couldn’t Uele or Atoni be middles, apart from the fact they rarely stand at first receiver?

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":15ak6ae6]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:15ak6ae6] He’s woeful! Big body and capable of some eye catching plays but lazy and heart the size of a pea, his lack of athleticism particularly his movement laterally makes him very easy to read in attack and a massive target in defence. He was the big lad that dominated games in the Academy because he was physically superior but once he stepped up he looked totally lost and anonymous.

"[quote="Vastman":b6f561mg]Oh do give it a rest for once. You know exactly what I meant so stop the agent provocateur stuff, I wouldn’t mind if you were any good at it. He comes as back up FACT and he will have to accept that to start with FACT. If he goes onto prove himself worthy and becomes first choice that’s fantastic, I’d love that. What he can’t do is swagger in and think he’s number one based on past achievements and then sulk when he isn’t first on the list. You earn your change or are you claiming otherwise?"[/quote:b6f561mg] Well that didn't take long. True colours always shine through i guess. But I think you'll find it isn't a fact its your opinion about something that hasn't even happened. I didn't actually think my reply was that controversial. I'd be interested to know how I can comment without getting a s response apart from just agreeing with you. Which in this case, I don't unfortunately

Rodwell being a 13 is not a given for me. He's fitter and more mobile than a normal prop but I can't say I've seen him do a lot of ball handling. Atoni does more than him. But as a powerful runner and big defensive backrower he's great. Just depends what kind of 13 you want.

[quote="PopTart":2pjg5aj7]Rodwell being a 13 is not a given for me. He's fitter and more mobile than a normal prop but I can't say I've seen him do a lot of ball handling. Atoni does more than him. But as a powerful runner and big defensive backrower he's great. Just depends what kind of 13 you want.[/quote:2pjg5aj7] There are very few ball playing 13s these days. I’m of the opinion you need 3 creative outlets on the field, 6, 7 and 1 or 13. If you go with 4 it reduces their time with the ball and effectiveness as they start to get in each others way. Origin 3 this year Queensland tried it throwing Pongia on without removing another creative player and they fell apart. Rodwell can tip on the ball and do big minutes with the ability to post a high tackle count and continue to be effective.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":17nef1lg]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:17nef1lg] He did pretty decent against trinity in championship but as you say he just can’t seem to crack it at the top level. Think he’s at Batley now.

[quote="Droopy":3f42q9aa][youtube][/youtube]My point exactly, other than McMeeken, our other starting props are either unproven at SL or have a point to prove. It does worry me. I was disappointed when Bowden signed elsewhere because whilst he isn’t a world beater, he is robust and experienced enough to be a key part of the team. You then look at if one of our first 4 props is injured who steps up? Bain and Vangana are both inexperienced and probably a little lightweight. Storton, probably would be my preference to step up but isn’t a natural prop. So I go back to my previous post, even though it wouldn’t be a exciting or inspiring signing, a experienced and robust SL prop is needed in my opinion.[/quote:3f42q9aa] Although I sort of agree, in hindsight another year from Bowden would have sorted us out but we don't know how his body was fairing even at Champ level let alone SL. but it looks like we enquiring after another body, after we asked Wigan about Makin. I'd say a few of our Props have a point to prove in SL, especially the young Aussies coming up for the first time, but I'm certainly not worried that they're going to let us down in any way. I haven't since we played Wigan in that friendly last year. Yeah, I know when it was and what it was, but all our guys handled themselves superbly against Wigan and showed they could go toe to toe against a champion SL team, and that was when most of them had just fallen off a plane. Since then their confidence levels have improved, they've got used to playing in England, as a team and have developed a good bond. I don't worry about McMeeken, Atoni, Uele or Rodwell. Atoni last half of 2023 was decent, once BIg Dave arrived to give the pack some go-forward and he seemed to feed off him and build confidence from there. Both Uele and Rodwell bossed the Championship so much that the step-up doesn't worry me at all. Both are complete professionals and Rodwell already came to us as a player ready to play at a higher level IMO. I also wouldn't put Bain and Vagana in the same bracket personally, Vagana has a higher ceiling IMO. I certainly wouldn't describe him as a little lightweight. He's already a huge guy for his age, with huge legs, 6ft4/5 and he has the frame to really add some size and muscle to it. Bain's smaller, weighs just 95kgs and is definitely more of a back row/13 than a prop, he's a similar size to Cozza and his frame wouldn't lend itself to piling on size, especially at 24 IMO. I know the coaches are looking at Vagana being a wide-running destructive back rower which I can understand, he's already caused issues out wide and another off-season under him it will potentially make him that much more dangerous. Saying that over the next year or 2 he could easily add 10kg and turn into a beast down the middle, whether that be prop or 13. Stourton could play prop at a push but we'd have to have an injury crisis, just as we would if Cozza played there or Bain. Storton's one of our best back rowers and along with Seth, Pitts, Griffin, that's where they should mostly stay. There's also Cam Scott who's a good back-rower, but it looks like we're fancying him at this season and tbf he looked the part on boxing g day.

Atoni's best game in 2023 in my opinion was against Warrington when he played 13. However, we used him as an extra prop rather than what you'd call a traditional loose forward. Powell often went with 3 props when he was at Cas, and this is where I think we'd need an extra one if we needed 3 on the bench as well.

[quote="imwakefieldtillidie":7yu4w9u6]I didn't think Kibula was anything special, even in the Championship. Struggled to get games in a poor Cas side.[/quote:7yu4w9u6] Kibula had a spell at Fev on loan towards the backend and was pretty woeful, missing tackles and making little impact. He's huge but seems to fancy himself as a ball-playing forward, he's the type who clubs will always take a chance on because of his size but he's not one to have too much faith in.