[quote="Trojan Horse":2rpumei3]You can’t penalise a team in advance and just guess though can you? The score for Salford on finance will have been very low and that’s exactly why they’ll be 12th and at risk even before the financial issues got even worse. So long as the figures are true then I see no issue Salford being in SL. London are no where near SL level and weren’t last season either. Even a team that parked up mid season playing half a team of academy lads finished above them. As it stands there are a few clubs in the championship who are better run and more deserving than London. The pity parade for London can remain in 2024.[/quote:2rpumei3] Well I agree they are more deserving than London but if they get out of this mess, a lot of it self inflicted by ignoring their responsibilities, then they can count themselves very lucky.

[quote="Butcher":2mb1gcvy]Good question, and my answer is a massive Yes. Toulouse yes, York maybe, Bradford no, Fev definitely not. [b:2mb1gcvy]That’s what the gradings are good for - you don’t have to guess at which clubs would make the comp stronger, you can actually see it. [/b:2mb1gcvy] [/quote:2mb1gcvy] Surely this has been comprehensively debunked by what we are seeing with Salford - if you could actually judge a club's status by their grading, there's no way they would have been just a point away from a Grade A. The fact that London were able to soar from a basement grade of 8.07 in 2024 to a grade of 12.65 simply on the back of a year in SL with all its IMG-point benefits highlights that the grades hide as much as they show.

[quote="Kirmudgeonlyisback":3vhq2ytu]At the moment it’s all speculation but if it came to pass and they lose 6-7 of their top players and end up with loaners and youngsters they will finish bottom and if they don’t get a backer possibly go bust - will sl be any the stronger if they are replaced with Toulouse fev or Bradford - probably not[/quote:3vhq2ytu] I don’t think it would be weaker either though. You missed imo one of the most likely team to come up next season in York. Wouldn’t be surprised to see them in SL 2026.

[quote="The Phantom Horseman":3sbc7qu2]Surely this has been comprehensively debunked by what we are seeing with Salford - if you could actually judge a club's status by their grading, there's no way they would have been just a point away from a Grade A. The fact that London were able to soar from a basement grade of 8.07 in 2024 to a grade of 12.65 simply on the back of a year in SL with all its IMG-point benefits highlights that the grades hide as much as they show.[/quote:3sbc7qu2] They finished 4th, and have some decent league positions to fall back on, yet they were a grand final win for Toulouse away from losing their spot. They're artificially boosted by the population of Salford, but the gradings have suitably placed the club despite its on field, relative, successes.

[quote="Butcher":3cdgyv62]Good question, and my answer is a massive Yes. Toulouse yes, York maybe, Bradford no, Fev definitely not. That’s what the gradings are good for - you don’t have to guess at which clubs would make the comp stronger, you can actually see it. I don’t want Salford to go bust, but I don’t mind if they drop into the Championship and rebuild sustainably or attract a new owner in the meantime. Especially if that means Toulouse or even York get a shot without the threat of relegation looming over them.[/quote:3cdgyv62] I think it`s pretty subjective on which clubs would make the competition `stronger` so I`m not sure it`s as simple as saying just look the IMG scores, although in practice I know that is how the system works, but this Salford situation just shows the system up really... York might have a screen to the right pixels, have some LED boards around the perimeter of there pitch but do they have the potential to average 15k fans with a decent team like Bradford could?

[quote="The Phantom Horseman":ybnc8b9l]Surely this has been comprehensively debunked by what we are seeing with Salford - if you could actually judge a club's status by their grading, there's no way they would have been just a point away from a Grade A. The fact that London were able to soar from a basement grade of 8.07 in 2024 to a grade of 12.65 simply on the back of a year in SL with all its IMG-point benefits highlights that the grades hide as much as they show.[/quote:ybnc8b9l] I don’t think so, personally. A point is a long way from Grade A. And now their finances have found to be rotten, they’ll get less points. You could argue it’s a few months too late, but you could argue that the obsession with avoiding relegation is what gets clubs in this mess in the first place.

[quote="homme vaste":2q3cw5tu]I think it`s pretty subjective on which clubs would make the competition `stronger` so I`m not sure it`s as simple as saying just look the IMG scores, although in practice I know that is how the system works, but this Salford situation just shows the system up really... York might have a screen to the right pixels, have some LED boards around the perimeter of there pitch but do they have the potential to average 15k fans with a decent team like Bradford could?[/quote:2q3cw5tu] And I think the gradings are the closest thing you can get to objectivity. I think a strong club does have LED boards around the pitch, along with a competitive squad, solid finances, a funded marketing team, a community programme, good attendances, and pretty much everything that’s covered in the gradings. I think a strong club has other things that aren’t covered - like a productive academy - but it’s a good effort. The LED boards (and directors seats) always get brought up as a rhetorical tactic to make the whole system seem trivial, but we all know it’s a tiny part of an overall grade of which attendance and performance - as you mention above - are a bigger part. As for York, yes, I don’t think they have the potential to get bigger crowds than Bradford, but they do have the potential to be a better team, and they arguably greater potential in other areas. Whereas Toulouse, who IMG ‘objectively’ see as the 13th strongest club, have greater potential in every single area.

[quote="Butcher":mwhr8ejw]And I think the gradings are the closest thing you can get to objectivity. I think a strong club does have LED boards around the pitch, along with a competitive squad, solid finances, a funded marketing team, a community programme, good attendances, and pretty much everything that’s covered in the gradings. I think a strong club has other things that aren’t covered - like a productive academy - but it’s a good effort. The LED boards (and directors seats) always get brought up as a rhetorical tactic to make the whole system seem trivial, but we all know it’s a tiny part of an overall grade of which attendance and performance - as you mention above - are a bigger part. As for York, yes, I don’t think they have the potential to get bigger crowds than Bradford, but they do have the potential to be a better team, and they arguably greater potential in other areas. Whereas Toulouse, who IMG ‘objectively’ see as the 13th strongest club, have greater potential in every single area.[/quote:mwhr8ejw] I agree with pretty much all that until the last part. Toulouse certainly don’t have greater potential in every area. Their crowds have been going in reverse, their team while good isn’t to the level of last years trinity or previously Leigh. They would be lucky to last 2 seasons in SL imo with crowds barely above 2k, the costs associated with logistics abs building a competitive team. Catalans manage it with a much higher attendence just about but even they’ve found it challenging in places. Toulouse SL year drops off this year so they will lose points. I expect they’ll miss out and end up packing their bags for 2026.

I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s. Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.

[quote="Butcher":cbr7hgdc]I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s. Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.[/quote:cbr7hgdc] Yeah pity that like Catalans they probably wouldn't bring any of their support with them. They should have their own SL - my opinion only.

And a fair opinion, that’s definitely the downside. Though I’m a believer (optimist more like) that clubs shouldn’t be relying on away support to fill their ground or their coffers. How good was the grand final? The fact there weren’t any Toulousains there didn’t spoil it for me.

[quote="Butcher":3tcmpu61] The fact there weren’t any Toulousains there didn’t spoil it for me.[/quote:3tcmpu61] Aren't sons of Toulouse referred to as "Tools"? Might be Castleford though?

[quote="Butcher":t4t1scuv]And a fair opinion, that’s definitely the downside. Though I’m a believer (optimist more like) that clubs shouldn’t be relying on away support to fill their ground or their coffers. How good was the grand final? The fact there weren’t any Toulousains there didn’t spoil it for me.[/quote:t4t1scuv] That is certainly something I agree with. The IMG targets are all about building a club to be self sustaining. That includes both Sky money and away support. They should be bonuses not your main strategy.

[quote="Butcher":3iniqrd3]I agree they haven’t been great on a few fronts this year. But the key word is potential. They’ve occasionally attracted crowds of 6,000 (9,000 against Catalans when their season was dead) and they’d return to that fairly quickly if admitted back in. But moreover it’s France’s fourth biggest city, more than a million people, with all the commercial opportunities that brings, and underpinned by a junior and amateur scene that’s much bigger than Salford or York’s. Apologies for getting way off topic with this, just enjoying the debate.[/quote:3iniqrd3] So just as big as London then? Just like London it won’t work. I would hazard a guess there’s far more juniors and amateurs including schools playing in Yorks demographic location that around Toulouse. There are no professional leagues afterall. If you can give more detail on the excellent junior and amateur scene in Toulouse then I’d certainly be more encouraged. This season a number of posts have been made suggesting that crowds appear to be higher than actual attendees at Toulouse. As it stands they just barely get more than York and Fev etc. I’ve no problem with you thinking Toulouse are this team that will bring in all this commercial benefit to the sport but I’d like to hear why you think that and what it’s based on. London didn’t bring a single zip of benefit commercially to the comp so I can’t see how Toulouse would be different. I’m not saying your wrong by the way but I’m not convinced, maybe o just don’t know as much about the commercial benefits they gain in Toulouse and their youth links etc.