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Tell you what. If those on here are just interested in speeding the game up more and more why don't we do away with ten players and just have a left wing and a right wing with a "scrum half" in the middle. No scrums, no knock ons, no tackles (they slow the game down), no tactical kicks for touch. That should really bring the crowds in.
 '"
In reply, you scoff but to be fair RL has been changing the rules consistently since it began. If we hadn’t you’d be watching RU, is that what you want? Yes we get it wrong at times and in recent years it’s been a bit to often but all the same it drives the game. 
To me RU is a game for nerds who love rules and regulation, RL is for those who wish to be entertained. With that comes an element of dumbing down or simplification depending how you see it but it’s still way better than kick and clap. |
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| Quote ="Redscat"a046.gif
Tell you what. If those on here are just interested in speeding the game up more and more why don't we do away with ten players and just have a left wing and a right wing with a "scrum half" in the middle. No scrums, no knock ons, no tackles (they slow the game down), no tactical kicks for touch. That should really bring the crowds in.
'"
Not sure if anyone has mentioned speeding up the game, most comments are around scrums not really being missed and how not having them, may help RL with its own identity.
I think there is work to be done on how to allow some breaks in play. The current situation with the "shot clock" counting down while the markers deliberately wait doesn't look great but, lets face it, scrums have been a joke in all of the 40+ years that I've been watching.
EVERY scrum is "fed" (in both League and Union) so, what's the point. |
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| Quote ="vastman"In reply, you scoff but to be fair RL has been changing the rules consistently since it began. If we hadn’t you’d be watching RU, is that what you want? Yes we get it wrong at times and in recent years it’s been a bit to often but all the same it drives the game.
To me RU is a game for nerds who love rules and regulation, RL is for those who wish to be entertained. With that comes an element of dumbing down or simplification depending how you see it but it’s still way better than kick and clap.'"
I don't share your view on Union. Its a great game to play steeped in history with a great social scene attached to it. It is marketed perfectly and has a massive international following.
And rugby has Laws not Rules.
It's just different to League. I far prefer league to watch but Union is enjoyable too.
Having more complex rules doesn't make it for nerds. |
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I think scrums should go but shot clock time reduced too
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| Quote ="vastman"In reply, you scoff but to be fair RL has been changing the rules consistently since it began. If we hadn’t you’d be watching RU, is that what you want? Yes we get it wrong at times and in recent years it’s been a bit to often but all the same it drives the game.
To me RU is a game for nerds who love rules and regulation, RL is for those who wish to be entertained. With that comes an element of dumbing down or simplification depending how you see it but it’s still way better than kick and clap.'"
Agree with both paragraphs, particularly the second, up to a point, but it seems to me that there appears to be a rule change at the start of every season with particular emphasis on "speeding up the game". At what point does rugby league become not rugby league anymore.. I've been watching rl since the mid-fifties and ,yes, the game has speeded up a hell of a lot but in my eye it does not make it any more of an exciting spectacle than it was 65 years ago. The winning of the scrum was an integral part of the procedure of the game; we still had the speed and excitement of a winger going full tilt for the line, and the ducking and weaving of the no. 6 and no.7. I think possibly one of the the biggest differences between the game of today and yesteryear is the fitness of the players. The game today just seems to be a case of what the Aussies do today we have to (try and) do tomorrow. |
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| Quote ="djcool"I think scrums should go but shot clock time reduced too'"
People bang on about player welfare and yet we are just doing everything that we can to speed the game up even more, I understand that they are professional athletes but the game is fast enough as it is without many breaks. It`s funny how quickly agendas change, it was only a few years back they the RFL introduced water breaks every 15/20 minutes in a game after the tragic death of Danny Jones, that quickly went out of the window.
For me, we can go too far on speeding the game up, along with this; wrestling (I understand you can argue that goes against the pace of the game comment) that has come in in the last 7/8 years - I understand the game has developed and the wrestle is probably here to stay but it is certainly becoming a bigger part of the game, some clubs are even looking at floor work (Training BJJ) and how they incorporate that into there defence, when you watch the Oli Holmes/Myler situation a couple of weeks ago, this is a prime example. I sometimes watch games from 10 years ago and think it was so much more enjoyable to watch. |
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| Quote ="vastman"In reply, you scoff but to be fair RL has been changing the rules consistently since it began. If we hadn’t you’d be watching RU, is that what you want? Yes we get it wrong at times and in recent years it’s been a bit to often but all the same it drives the game.
To me RU is a game for nerds who love rules and regulation, RL is for those who wish to be entertained. With that comes an element of dumbing down or simplification depending how you see it but it’s still way better than kick and clap.'"
I will be honest, I have stopped watching any rugby union at all on the basis I just don`t understand the rules, especially when it comes to the ruck and what is and isn't allowed. |
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| Quote ="homme vaste"People bang on about player welfare and yet we are just doing everything that we can to speed the game up even more, I understand that they are professional athletes but the game is fast enough as it is without many breaks. It`s funny how quickly agendas change, it was only a few years back they the RFL introduced water breaks every 15/20 minutes in a game after the tragic death of Danny Jones, that quickly went out of the window.
For me, we can go too far on speeding the game up, along with this; wrestling (I understand you can argue that goes against the pace of the game comment) that has come in in the last 7/8 years - I understand the game has developed and the wrestle is probably here to stay but it is certainly becoming a bigger part of the game, some clubs are even looking at floor work (Training BJJ) and how they incorporate that into there defence, when you watch the Oli Holmes/Myler situation a couple of weeks ago, this is a prime example. I sometimes watch games from 10 years ago and think it was so much more enjoyable to watch.'"
Just a point on the wrestling as well, the clubs aren't at fault, it is effective but I think somewhere along the line RFL need to draw a line just like the NRL should have done years ago with Melbourne, now it seems too late for them to bring in any restrictions on there wrestle as every club in the league is at that level. |
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| Quote ="homme vaste"I will be honest, I have stopped watching any rugby union at all on the basis I just don`t understand the rules, especially when it comes to the ruck and what is and isn't allowed.'"
Laws.
I was captain of a team and had to check with the ref what my options were when there was an infringement at the lineout. I got some dirty looks from the life long Union boys  |
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I do agree with the player welfare statement though Homme V.
We are not playing basketball. There is a limit to how fast the play should go if we want to see big impacts and players staying fit.
7s is fun to watch but it isn't the main game because it lacks the structure and intensity. That's what speeding the game up does.
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contested scrums for me but it wont happen
The union scrum has also become farce rarely won against the feed today
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Union scrums, you put it in you get it out but they tend to spend hours on training packing down correctly. It's hardly kick and clap these days with the introduction of RL coaches and the odd player thrown on to the mix. The main advantage from a player point of view is that it appeals to all shapes and sizes.
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| Quote ="lampyboy"Union scrums, you put it in you get it out but they tend to spend hours on training packing down correctly. It's hardly kick and clap these days with the introduction of RL coaches and the odd player thrown on to the mix. The main advantage from a player point of view is that it appeals to all shapes and sizes.'"
I get what you are saying about the practicing of scrums or any other play in Union but what I can’t understand when I watch it is the amount of time that goes by on the clock before they get to the feed and other areas on the field, would love to know the amount of time that the ball is in actual play in an average game of Union. |
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| Quote ="lampyboy"Union scrums, you put it in you get it out but they tend to spend hours on training packing down correctly. It's hardly kick and clap these days with the introduction of RL coaches and the odd player thrown on to the mix. The main advantage from a player point of view is that it appeals to all shapes and sizes.'"
Union has improved no doubt but still way to many rules for me and far to much emphasis on set plays. Scrums can go for me, hardly noticed they’d gone if I’m honest, thought I would. |
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The games definitely improved Vasty and I have seen quite a few games over the past 10 seasons or so. I also agree that the time setting scrums needs to be quicker.
The biggest disappointment for me is the quality of centre play they have totally lost the ability to draw a man and seem more intent on taking the tackle..
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Scrums to stay, for me.
There seems to be two schools of thought: contested scrums or no scrums at all.
Those who yearn for contested scrums must have forgotten what they were actually like. A succession of collapses and messes and penalties. They brought in the differential penalty to stop teams getting points from a scrum infringement, or else teams spent most of the game kicking for goal.
Those who want no scrums haven't considered the "live" version. In place of scrums, we have four blokes milling around, watching the stop-clock, taking deep breaths. It just about works on TV because different camera angles and replays break it up, because the TV people know that watching four blokes take a rest for thirty seconds isn't good viewing. Live, it will look boring and weird and not speed anything up.
So, four blokes standing around and watching a clock, or twelve blokes packing down, creating a different attacking opportunity and actually looking like rugby? I know which I'd choose.
Scrums.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"Scrums to stay, for me.
There seems to be two schools of thought: contested scrums or no scrums at all.
Those who yearn for contested scrums must have forgotten what they were actually like. A succession of collapses and messes and penalties. They brought in the differential penalty to stop teams getting points from a scrum infringement, or else teams spent most of the game kicking for goal.
Those who want no scrums haven't considered the "live" version. In place of scrums, we have four blokes milling around, watching the stop-clock, taking deep breaths. It just about works on TV because different camera angles and replays break it up, because the TV people know that watching four blokes take a rest for thirty seconds isn't good viewing. Live, it will look boring and weird and not speed anything up.
So, four blokes standing around and watching a clock, or twelve blokes packing down, creating a different attacking opportunity and actually looking like rugby? I know which I'd choose.
Scrums.'"
I get what you're saying, but it doesn't have to be 30 seconds ( I thought they'd already reduced it to 25?). 15 seconds would be plenty to reorganise and plan a set move, much like a penalty, is the shot clock even needed?
As you say, I can't imagine any tidy way of returning to competitive scrums, so how does 12 random team members loosely touching each other for a couple of seconds look like rugby?
How many scrums are there in a game these days. We already have turnover on the last tackle, would a similar turnover on any infringement normally resulting in a scrum even be noticed?
If someone could find a way to bring back a form of scrum that looked anything like a 'rugby' scrum, I could live with it, but modern RL 'scrums' are just plain embarrassing. |
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| Quote ="coco the fullback"I get what you're saying, but it doesn't have to be 30 seconds ( I thought they'd already reduced it to 25?). 15 seconds would be plenty to reorganise and plan a set move, much like a penalty, is the shot clock even needed?
As you say, I can't imagine any tidy way of returning to competitive scrums, so how does 12 random team members loosely touching each other for a couple of seconds look like rugby?
How many scrums are there in a game these days. We already have turnover on the last tackle, would a similar turnover on any infringement normally resulting in a scrum even be noticed?
If someone could find a way to bring back a form of scrum that looked anything like a 'rugby' scrum, I could live with it, but modern RL 'scrums' are just plain embarrassing.'"
I don't disagree. It's a case of deciding the least-worst option.
At the moment, there seems to be an agreement that the markers can stand away from the play the ball for the full duration of the stop-clock and that they won't be penalised and the attacking team won't play the ball until everyone is ready. If the stop-clock was removed and teams penalised for messing around and delaying, it would probably solve the issue, but then you have the issue of player-welfare when playing the whole game at breakneck speed.
I know the NRL are looking at keeping scrums because they are part of the game's heritage, and that is sort of where I am. I agree they are a bit of a farce, but they feel like the least-worst option. Better than messy scrums and probably better for the players than playing the whole thing at the fastest pace throughout. At least they allow for a break that looks like something is going on.
None of the options are great, in reality, so I get where the no-scrum lobby is coming from. |
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My only concern is related to injuries caused by fatigue. Already a fast game, this makes it even faster. Overall, the Scrum as it was, was pointless. Perhaps we allow teams limited numbers of brief time outs or a slightly longer rest period where there would have been a scrum?
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After watching the Grand Final, I've changed my mind on scrums.
All the way through relentless action, at no point did I think, "it just needs some badly-formed scrums to make the game complete". And at one point, when the ball went into touch and I'd forgotten there were no scrums, I remember thinking that this is where non-rugby people think the game is a bit of a joke.
So, I'm now with the no-scrum lobby.
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| Quote ="Slugger McBatt"After watching the Grand Final, I've changed my mind on scrums.
All the way through relentless action, at no point did I think, "it just needs some badly-formed scrums to make the game complete". And at one point, when the ball went into touch and I'd forgotten there were no scrums, I remember thinking that this is where non-rugby people think the game is a bit of a joke.
So, I'm now with the no-scrum lobby.'"
Strangely I was having identical thoughts to those of your own, Slugger. I somehow think that the game wouldn't have been the spectacle it was with ten or so stoppages. I may well be changing my own ideas on this matter. |
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I’d already come to that conclusion, let them go they belong to a different era.
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I'm happy to see them go - when the hooker was allowed/able to challenge for the ball they were great but did slow the games down - now after a few months of no scrums I like it, I'd still prefer to have scrums that were challengeable but if we aren't going back to them then this is the next best - all or nothing
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I am in the scrap the scrum camp, for reasons I've given before, but this is clearly from a spectator perspective.
These changes are all a bonus to the fans on the terraces, but perhaps we need to ask the opinion of the people who are directly affected, the players and the coaches. Is this level of intensity sustainable?
What will be the longer term effect of the changes once the coaches have had chance to analyse the changes and adopt their tactics?
The differences are not just from no scrums, the 6 again rule has also had a big effect.
I guess someone could analyse and compare with the NRL where they kept scrums but had 6 again.
I hope the Aussies can be persuaded that scrums have had their day. We'll have to bring them back if they keep them, especially with the World Cup coming up. It would be a big gamble to go a season without scrums then enter a world cup with them. It could pay off though, but I don't think the RFL are brave enough to make the leap.
Is there any high level meeting to discuss the rules for next season?
Interesting stats from the SL website:
https://www.superleague.co.uk/article/1 ... out-stats-
Quote The increase in the number of quick play-the-balls per match is startling since the August restart.
The figure has risen by 99% to an average of 61.'"
Quote The first three weekends of action in August saw an average ball-in-play time of 63 minutes and 20 seconds - a ten-minute rise on early season numbers (53 minutes and 12 seconds), and 11 minutes up on 2019.
That figure has dropped a little and is now at an average of 56 minutes and 57 seconds post-lockdown.
However, it is still higher than what we saw pre-lockdown in 2020 and in 2019, in which the average was 52 minutes and 4 seconds. '"
Quote There have been 61 games since Super League’s return with an average of 708 tackles per match.
That figure is down slightly from the early rounds of post-lockdown Super League but well up on the pre-lockdown average of 658 and the 652 average in 2019. '"
Some similar stats and interesting quotes from the St Helens Star:
https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/18 ... er-harder/
Quote Post-lockdown there have been more carries (up 23 per cent) and the number of metres covered with ball in hand is up by 17 per cent on pre-lockdown games - the most since 2010.'"
Most interestingly 'since 2010', suggesting the game has gone backwards since then and this is maybe a return to better days?
I was suprised to read that there was an average of 12 scrums per game, I would have guessed at half that. I may have to do some research during the off-season on TrinityTV.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... oronavirus
Quote With 12 scrums per game on average in Super League this season, that results in more than 1,500 occasions of close contact in every fixture. '"
This is not so far away from the other code, which seems to be always having scrums, but I guess they take longer and many are reset. 10 years old and from Oz, but:
www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum- ... tatistics/ |
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I am in the scrap the scrum camp, for reasons I've given before, but this is clearly from a spectator perspective.
These changes are all a bonus to the fans on the terraces, but perhaps we need to ask the opinion of the people who are directly affected, the players and the coaches. Is this level of intensity sustainable?
What will be the longer term effect of the changes once the coaches have had chance to analyse the changes and adopt their tactics?
The differences are not just from no scrums, the 6 again rule has also had a big effect.
I guess someone could analyse and compare with the NRL where they kept scrums but had 6 again.
I hope the Aussies can be persuaded that scrums have had their day. We'll have to bring them back if they keep them, especially with the World Cup coming up. It would be a big gamble to go a season without scrums then enter a world cup with them. It could pay off though, but I don't think the RFL are brave enough to make the leap.
Is there any high level meeting to discuss the rules for next season?
Interesting stats from the SL website:
https://www.superleague.co.uk/article/1 ... out-stats-
Quote The increase in the number of quick play-the-balls per match is startling since the August restart.
The figure has risen by 99% to an average of 61.'"
Quote The first three weekends of action in August saw an average ball-in-play time of 63 minutes and 20 seconds - a ten-minute rise on early season numbers (53 minutes and 12 seconds), and 11 minutes up on 2019.
That figure has dropped a little and is now at an average of 56 minutes and 57 seconds post-lockdown.
However, it is still higher than what we saw pre-lockdown in 2020 and in 2019, in which the average was 52 minutes and 4 seconds. '"
Quote There have been 61 games since Super League’s return with an average of 708 tackles per match.
That figure is down slightly from the early rounds of post-lockdown Super League but well up on the pre-lockdown average of 658 and the 652 average in 2019. '"
Some similar stats and interesting quotes from the St Helens Star:
https://www.sthelensstar.co.uk/sport/18 ... er-harder/
Quote Post-lockdown there have been more carries (up 23 per cent) and the number of metres covered with ball in hand is up by 17 per cent on pre-lockdown games - the most since 2010.'"
Most interestingly 'since 2010', suggesting the game has gone backwards since then and this is maybe a return to better days?
I was suprised to read that there was an average of 12 scrums per game, I would have guessed at half that. I may have to do some research during the off-season on TrinityTV.
https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2020/ ... oronavirus
Quote With 12 scrums per game on average in Super League this season, that results in more than 1,500 occasions of close contact in every fixture. '"
This is not so far away from the other code, which seems to be always having scrums, but I guess they take longer and many are reset. 10 years old and from Oz, but:
www.greenandgoldrugby.com/scrum- ... tatistics/ | |
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I’ve said it before but I’ll say it again. Scrums, passing and aspects of tackling are the only similarities now between the two codes.
Clearly passing and tackling stay but scrums can go for me. In a stroke that truly separates the two codes. They are now about as similar as Aussie rules, Gailic football or the NFL. Slight exaggeration don’t take literally.
Drop the word Rugby and just call the sport League and we’ve finally done it.
I get the fatigue issue but a simple way around that is to enforce the 10 meter rule. It’s impact that causes the problem imo, this wouldn’t reduce the energy loss but would reduce the physicality, which is the issue to me.
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