I disagree given the treatment Tomkins got tonight. I think Ablett knew he was offside as if you play the game it is tough not to especially when you are that far offside and had the intention of taking Tomkins out, just like the rest of the Leeds team tried to do tonight.

I don't disagree, except I'm not sure he intended to take him in the head. I think he was looking for a really solid body shot, when Tomkins would be standing still and not able to get out of the way, because the timing of the hit was superb (ignoring any offside issue).

Which is why i saw no reason for him to raise the elbow. I cant think of any situation why you would do that unless you were trying to cause damage.

Sam did not drop into the elbow. Albett clearly raised the forearm/elbow to his face.

Regardless of who a player plays for I cannot condone that sort of play. If you are going to take a player out take them out clean, for me that was a really bad cheap shot, up there with Micj Cassidy on Adrian Morley when he played for Leeds.

Cowardly and intentional for me.

Does he raise the elbow? Have another look, having seen it live but from behind Ablett, it just looked to be a well timed hit. I looked at the screen replay and then seeing it again from the side thought he was lucky to still be on the pitch. However, on watching the game again I agree with Slugger, it does not have any intent, a big well timed hit yes (albeit from what was a slightly offside position), but all Albett does his bring his arms in front of his chest but does not raise them above chest height. Tomkins stumbles forward after his excellent take and the timing of both means that Tomkins head is at chest height as Ablett comes in for the hit.

He does not raise his arms above chest height and for me that is the key. I don't think he intends to hit Tomkins in the face, is just turned out that way.

I will watch it again in the morning, but I have one question, why would Ablett's arm need to be anywhere near Tomkins jaw?

The 2 scenario's are he is challenging for the ball or making the tackle. in either case were it not deliberate he needs coaching on his catching or tacking technique. If attempting to make a tackle why would you legally lead with the forearm/elbow? If you were carrying the ball I can understand it, but I have never seen a rugby text book that can condone running into contact without the ball with a raised forearm/elbow.


Given the treatment Tomkins got all night I personally have no doubt the aim of the game was to take him out, but that is the sign of a quality player and he seems to thrive in that roll.

You are missing the point, Tomkins stumbles forward and loses his footing meaning his head is actual at Ablett chest height, and Ablett does not raise his arm above chest height. Ablett is clearly looking to put the hit on Tomkins as soon as possible after he takes the ball, he brings his arms to chest height looking to hit Tomkins head-on in his chest, but Tomkins has stumpled and takes one in the head from Ablett.

It was an illegal tackle (because he contacted with the head) and as such a penalty was given, but when it comes to a disciplinary hearing they are looking at poor technique or deliberate intent. I don't think there was either from Ablett, Tomkins took one in the face because he stumbled forward just as Ablett lined him up for what he thought was going to be a big but legal hit.

Don't feel too sorry for Tomkins, he is a great player and does get lots of attention, but he also plays the game the other way. You didn't see him deliberately kick the ball off the centre spot, twice, towards his own goal line after Wigan's last try to try and avoid a quick Leeds restart on TV... but he did!

I understand fully what you are saying regards the challenge and the attempt by Ablett to make the hit, my question is IF as you are saying Ablett was going to make the tackle, why did he lead with his forearm/elbow? Is this some form of new technique? This is also assuming he did not realise he was offside which is also a little hard to believe but potentially plausible, the position of his arm though regardless of the height if as you say he was just going to make a tackle is my issue, and I would like to see you explain why his arm was that in that position if he was looking to make a legal tackle.

Regards Tomkins, I am fully aware he is the master of the professional foul, but there is a major difference between a professional fouls and trying to take a player out, to compare the 2 is ridiculous.

Err, there is nothing illegal in barging a player to the ground, it happens quite a lot, in most games in fact!?! Danny McGuire put a great hit on Fielden which was exactly the same but legal because it did not contact with his head. So what was the difference between McGuire and Ablett? Nothing for me other than Ablett did hit Tomkins in the head, but I don't think he intend to and that is the point!

I was no comparing Tomkins sportsmanship with Abletts tackle, just pointing out he is gives as good as he gets and I you don't need to feel sorry for him... he plays RL not netball!

I agree to a certain extent he gives as good as he gets regards his ability to win a penalty, he is the master at conning the ref into giving a penalty for lying on when he wraps his body round the tackler, picked one up tonight again for that I think.

The last time I looked I am not sure a barge includes leading with the forearm/elbow. Shoulder fair enough. Full body contact is fine if it is just that, but trying to claim going into the contact leading with an elbow/forearm in defence is in every case at the best bad technique at worst malicious.

He just put his bumpers up for me and does not 'lead' with his forearm. He is lining up for the big legal hit on Tomkins and because Tomkins is at full tilt as he takes the ball he sort of goes low, stumbles, whatever you want to call it, and cops it full in the face from Ablett. I genuinely don't think Ablett intends to hit him in the face, he does not have any real previous for this sort of thing, but you are allowed to disagree of course.

Have a look at Danny's hit on Fielden a couple of minutes later and tell me what the difference is in their techniques?

As I said I will watch it again tomorrow, but for me in that situation I can think of no reason why you would go into contact leading with the elbow/forearm, now I may have had a few beers but I am still fairly sure the first point of contact was with his arm regardless of where that contact was it was still leading with the arm.

But I agree we are going round in circles so perhaps a good sleep will change my opinion of it, but i doubt it and I fully expect a 2 game ban to be heading his way at the very least.

He just ran straight at him leading with the forearm/elbow no attempt to make a tackle. Should have been a straight red. It's about time these 'barges' were outlawed anyone can just run in and clatter someone the skill is in making a tackle.

Thats how I saw it, shocker and the most blatant red card showing I have seen.
Not like Ganson to bottle it.

cant do with bottleless refs. why put it on report for some useless t**t on the "disciplinary" panel made up of(david blunkett, stevie wonder etc) to make their decision. Ablett will get a letter through the post telling him to sort his tackling technique out. Ablett shouldnt play again this season in my opinion.

Missed the game and the tackle however its annoying at present too many forwards are trying to be misters going in with shoulder shots or arms into the chest trying to knock them off there feet. When it goes wrong or a player side steps its seems ok when there nose is stuck to the tackling players forerm

and we say well he aimed for his chest! You take the chance, take the punishment!!

All teams have them and dont get me wrong its great when they come off but i much prefer the good old fashioned tackling by the legs! You cant run without them.. Girlfriends Dad has watched last 2 matches and has never been before but he's constantly saying get his bloody legs! I confess i hadnt noticed as much due to always watching but he's right tackle the bloody legs and were happy!!

If the legs fail when a 6ft 4 19stone bloke is running at you, poke them in the eye with some S**t!! What happens if there isnt any?? Dont worry there will be

Thought it was a definite red card for Ablett and yet again Bailey shows he is a thug. Interesting to see how many games they get (I don't think any) as its the semis next week.

Tomkins does have an awkward, all over the place style and always contests the collision, which can make for messy looking tackles; that said, I don't like this 'body-check' tackle style that's increasingly being employed, particularly against blokes kicking or catching the ball.

Either way, Ablett performed a 'body-check' with a raised forearm, so he deserved to walk; Ganson bottled it, his assistants bottled it and Red Hall will no doubt issue a slap on the wrist, which seems to be the standard punishment for Leeds players. Bailey will no doubt get the same for kneeing someone in the knackers.

The Coley incident was harsh, but since he's a vicious thug most of the time, you can't help but conclude that he walked partly because of his reputation - if it looks like a high tackle and Coley is involved, it probably is a high tackle. Occam's Razor kind of thing.

as far as i am concerned, he was looking straight at the man, focused with intent and a leading elbow / forearm which smashed in to the jaw..well webb has been doing it since he came over here so no change there the ! please whino's do NOT defend you make yourselves look very stupid..as for coley !! ganson needs to take a long look at that performance..well done wigan for not rising to what leeds tried to drag you down to

Mate I have watched it again, and for me it was a deliberate attack on Tomkins. He has no focus on the ball at all and leads into the tackle with him elbow raised to make the first contact.

I am not sure how you can try to defend the challenge, it was a very bad one without doubt.

I do not blame Ganson for not showing red, his touch judges bottled it for me not Ganson.

Korkidas wouldn't be able to get close enough!

In fairness red hall do sometimes (though rarely) give leeds players bans, they usually are reduced to a fine on appeal afterwards though.

I dont think it was deliberate but it was seriously reckless and deserves 3-4 games (as would probably happen in the nrl) but will probaly only get 1-2 tops. With regards to Ganson i have always wondered why refs call for a play to be put on report when the whole game is in affect being scrutinised by the rfl anyway. That young lad Childs (i think) seems confident in his own convictions and calls a lot of things on the field. Good on him. A SL standard ref should be able to call stuff like the Ablett thing and give the appropriate punishment ie red card on the field. I dont like the report system because it allows English refs to send anything to the RFL to look at on tuesday that should be dealt with on the field. The report system should be used for the borderline stuff and when the ref was unsighted. Not the serious stuff.

Firstly, I am not defending Ablett's challenge, I have said already that had Ablett got a Red or Yellow on the night I would have no complaints but what we are now talking about is whether it was with malice or intent and therefore should be punished with a suspension. He hit Tomkins in the face with his arm so it was an illegal tackle and you can't defend any illegal play, intentional or not and I am not trying to. However, does he deserve a lengthy ban, a short ban or a warning?

You say it was a deliberate attack on Tomkins, do you mean by that, that you think Ablett deliberately intended to hit Tomkins in the face and it was premeditated and with malice? I think Ablett was 100% deliberate in his intentions to put the big hit on Tomkins as soon as he caught the ball, he intended to body check/barge him over and not tackle him in the traditional sense however, that is not illegal. What happened is he ended up making contact with his head, this is illegal, intentional or not. Some will say it was poor timing, a split second later and Tomkins would have probably being back stood to his full height again and Ablett would have contacted with his chest, some will say a poor read, well of course he would be bending at the knees, stumbling forward as he caught the ball, Ablett should have read this and not tried to make a body check tackle in the first place and some, like you appear to be saying that he knew he was going to hit him the face and that was his clear intention? The first two better explain it the for me and I really do think that the final one does not, he does not seem to have any malicious intention to purposefully take Tomkins in the head as far as I am concerned, as I have said before, this is the key.

We know that the video review and disciplinary committee's rarely view these particular types of incidents in slow-motion, preferring to watch all the angles but over and over again at full speed. Why? Because slow-motion distorts the viewers perception of timing, you watch that in slow-mo and it looks nasty and brutal, watch it at full speed and just see how quick the whole thing is over. Ablett clearly lines Tomkins up, he has decided to take him with a body check as soon as he is able after Tomkins has taken the ball and his feet have hit the ground, but in the following split second (and it is less than a second) Tomkins is still low as he catches the ball at full tilt (lets face it, Tomkins has balls the size of small planets and never takes his eyes off the ball and is 100% committed to taking the ball at full tilt to turn defence into attack) and Ablett raises his arms, but only to chest height, and catches Tomkins in the head.

This happens, it is Rugby, it is a contact sport, and players will get things wrong and make wrong decisions BUT did he intend to hit Tomkins in the head, I really do doubt it watching it at full speed and given Ablett's previous record.

Despite asking the question several times, what is the difference in style and intent between McGuire's body check/tackle on Fielden, which Stevo was wetting his pants over in his usual over emphatic style and Ablett's body check/tackle?

What will be interesting will be the wording in the review and disciplinary committee's reports, lets see if they agree with you or me... he might still get a ban for a poor read and/or poor timing but will they agree he intended to do it?

Slow it down, speed it up, show it at normal speed whichever it still looks like the intention was to put Tomkins out of the game through fair means or foul. He must have had a good idea he was offside for a start and an equally good idea about where he was likely to make contact. His behaviour in attempting to 'rough' Tomkns up just a few tackles later tells me more about his 'character' than his 'previous record'. For me it was an intentional cheap shot and a deliberate attempt to put a quality player out of the game. Only Mr Ablett knows the truth but he doesn't come out of it looking too clever.

I think it was a deliberate attack yes.

Ablett would have had more than a good idea he was offside, he had an age to get the correct body position to make this "big hit" yet he still lead with the arm, the treatment Tomkins got throughout was one of a team sent out to target a player.

All this barge nonsense is just that nonsense in my opinion. He had so much time to get his body position right yet he still lead with the arm raised high. I feel he knew exactly what he was doing. He showed no attempt to play the ball when it was in the air, he set off to cause harm in my opinion.

Regards the Maguire incident not re watched it so i cannot comment, but I will bet he did not have 30 or 40 yards to run prior to making contact with his arm/elbow raised at a players head.

At best terrible technique, but I feel there was more to it than that taken in the context of the game.