Should we go for him if he becomes available?

He's treading a very dangerous line. Right now he could go one of two ways. Upwards and with distinction. Or complete self-destruct.

Big risk for a big pay packet.

Besides, it's props you need. Not full backs.

I've got more chance of being signed than him.
Good player but appears to be a total gob shoite.
I will show my backside at the top of wigan if we sign him during IL tenure

No, we definitely need a FB.

Ashton Golding, the young lad who played FB last week and was in the 19 man squad, played for the u19's tonight so that means Hardaker will be playing vs Wigan.

You might *like* a fullback. But you *need* a prop.

The value of a good prop outweighs the value of possibly every other position in the modern game. And it's not like Wigan have a nailed-on championship winning group of props to begin with.

Looking at the Saints vs Warrington game I'm struggling to see where one of Wigan's props gets a spot in either line-up.

Bear in mind that Wigan could barely make a yard in the centre of the pitch in the GF. And Saints pack is even stronger this year. Warrington's, too.

St.Helen's may be going pretty well at the moment but don't get too ahead of yourselves. Clubb would get a spot in both teams Prop rotation on current form although admittedly it would be off the bench. Mossop needs a few more weeks but going of his performance Vs Hull he would get a spot in the rotation of both at the moment and if he remains fit would push for a starting spot and Flower when he returns from his ban would also make both teams Prop rotation.

"Honest" Tony Clubb is precisely that. A first choice prop for a mid-table team.

Bear in mind that Savelio can churn out 180+ yards (plus tries and offloads) and he currently can't even make the starting line-up.

Before anything Wigan need to sign one, but more likely two, top tier props because all the talent in the world in the halves and outside backs matters little if your pack is getting squashed at the advantage line.

There have been all manner of excuses for why Wigan's form has nosedived since winning the GF. I'm not saying this is the sole reason - but neglecting the front row (in comparison to your title winning year) is a massive factor. Especially when you consider that relatively light guys like Farrell are more suited to making yards outside the centre channel.

You can't carry on conceding 6-12lbs per man in the pack in big games. It's putting enormous pressure on your backs to be the game winner every time.

I think, rather than looking at a game where one of Wigan's props was missing maybe looking at a more recent game would be good? How about Brisbane? Wigan's pack seemed to have done well enough there and again last week.

As for Hardaker, why would Wigan want another Hock on the books?

The grand final is irrelevant as Flower was off, Pettybourne isn't here anymore and Crosby is no longer a first choice prop. Plus we were a man down and only had one prop on the pitch at any time.

I'm more than happy with Flower, Clubb and Mossop as three of our four main props. The fourth prop position is where I'm not so comfortable. The jury is still out on Tautai, Patrick and Crosby are poor currently, Sutton and Greenwood too young to say yet. If a good prop becomes available I'd hope we would be in the mix to sign him.

As for Hardaker, not for me. He is a very good player but he has self destruct written all over him IMO, and isn't so good that I'd look past that like i would have with Long in his prime, for example.

This bashing of the Wigan pack is bordering on hilarious. The pack stood up to a very big Brisbane pack a few weeks back with no problem. Yes the pack could do with being slightly bigger but anyone who has been in a sport environment will know sport can turn round very quickly. Saints' pack is huge but there are ways to play against them IMO and I'm starting to see signs in that team that a loss is on its way.

Brisbane's front three were never challenged by Wigan's. Don't confuse your ability to churn up yards fifteen yards+ either side of the centre channel with being on equal terms with Brisbane's pack. With twenty five minutes to go Brisbane wrestled complete control of that channel (not that they ever looked in danger of being challenged there anyhow) and never looked likely to relinquish it.

As for blaming Wigan's total inability to control the centre channel in the GF entirely on Ben Flower. You shouldn't need me to remind you how silly that sounds.

Blame Ben Flower for the GF. Blame Shaun Wane for not picking some kid who hasn't even established himself as a first teamer yet.

If blame is to be apportioned me thinks you are pointing it in the wrong direction.

No props - no pots.

The only thing that's starting to sound silly is your complete corruption of the facts. We stood up against Brisbane without Flower, O'Loughlin and Mossop. We didn't dominate but you wouldn't expect us to with those 3 missing, but we did stand up. In comparison, your pack was mauled by Souths. Now take Walmsley, Amor and your best player, Roby out of your starting line up and how much worse would you have been. Given you were already humiliated with a near full strength pack, I dread to think! Our starting props against Brisbane were Crosby and Sutton. Do I really need to spell this out to you? I know you're not the idiot you seem hell bent on making yourself out to be...

Secondly stop referring to the GF as some sort of marker of the respective packs. If you want to compare use the ONLY time anything near to the full strength packs went against each other last season. What happened then? You do remember Good Friday don't you? The day you were 'taken to school'?

There's no doubt that the Saints pack are looking good this time around. I think you've recruited well in Vea and Greenwood and Walmsley are both looking the business. However, as I've said previously, let our first choice pack at least take the field before making such ridiculous claims. This is the style of pack that has taken us to 2 Grand Finals. I know you're into rewriting history but even you can't deny that it must be getting something right!

If that is what Clubb is, how do you describe Masoe, Thompson, and Richards? Whose stats are well behind Clubb. Clubb has played one less game than Masoe but has stats better than his, including average gain in which your regular "impact" prop could be rated from. His stats dwarf Thompson and Richards.

If Savelio could make 180yards each game as you allude to he would walk into your 17 every week.

I'm not just talking about Brisbane. At no point in the last twelve months have I seen Wigan's front three show the kind of raw physicality which was a key component of your title winning year. Surely you've noticed this?



You do realise the entire competition is based upon building toward one single match that decides the champion team? Given that every coach understands this concept why WOULDN'T YOU judge the absolute merits of victor and vanquished? If you can't figure out which team has the better set of forwards - IN THE GRAND FINAL - when can you?



As I've said - I'm not basing my judgement on a handful of games. I mean, by all means - convince yourself that Wigan's front three is as dominant today (at full strength) as it was when you won the title. But please, leave me out.

Looking at Mossop and Clubb's stats last night.

QED.

Sorry mugwump but Phuzzy has well and truly owned you.

You'd best tell SL's statistician.



Tony Clubb 3 - 26
Lee Mossop 4 - 28
Taulima Tautai 13 - 86
Larne Patrick 5 - 30

The total of all four doesn't reach the combined total of two of Warrington's yardage makers. And they were on the losing side as part of a comprehensively beaten pack.

That's the strange part of your argument - we win the GF last year if Hohaia doesn't get away with a blatant forearm smash off the ball.

The size of our pack isn't a problem. The current structure and lack of direction from key areas is (Bowen, Wane, Smith et al).

Oh for pity's sake! Listen to yourself.

So, Zak Hardaker?

Gareth Hock Mk II

Certainly going that way. He still has time to turn it around though, for his sake and the Rugby league over here I hope he does because we simply don't have enough talented players that we can afford to lose one of the better ones.

He might be one of those players that needs to get away from his current environment to move forward, if that's the case I'm sure he wont be short of offers. I'd take a punt on him at Saints given our ongoing troubles at fullback , If Locke continues to do nothing at Salford I'm sure the doc will be waving £££ at him and given Bowen is done at the end of the year and Hampshire can't buy a game you lot would be interested.

Leeds might not want to offload mid season given the trouble they'd have getting a replacement but come the end of the season they may have already decided enough is enough ...