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| I know this is a much visited topic, but yesterday's game set me thinking. In order to beat Australia and NZ then we can't just play the defence wins games model, and play a conservative low risk game. We may win very occasionally doing this if they are a bit off par. IMHO our best chance is to be more adventurous. Obviously this means keeping Sinfield out of the team. While I don't think Chase or Brough would fit in at Wigan, they are obviously the most creative halves we have available. I for one would be accept defeat somewhat easier if we gave it a go. We are not good enough to beat them at their down game.
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| Sinfield is better than chase.
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| I'd have a look at Blake Greens availability.
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| chase isnt worth it. hes a rugby idiot. despite some of his great plays.
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| Not convinced by Sinfield, Chase, Brough or Widdop tbh so it's really tough to pick a pairing. In all honesty I'm also a little worried that Tomkins will be ruthlessly targetted with the high ball at fullback by the Aussies/Kiwis so I'd be seriously tempted to get him back in to the halfbacks and throw a player in at fullback to surprise the NRL boys.
At the moment if I had to pick a 1,6 and 7 I'd go-
1- Lomax
6- Sinfield
7- Tomkins
The best mixture of experience, youth, pace and surprise factor I think we could throw at teams at the moment.
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| Quote ="FIOS"Sinfield is better than chase.'"
Sinfield has a great kicking game. You get as good if not better from Brough. My point is, a structured game plan has failed time and time again. To illustrate this if you watch Wigan's set plays they are devastating against all but the best defences in SL. But the best teams deal with it. Aus and Kiwi defences need something different to get through. I would not normally endorse Chase, but we need an X factor. The only other option would be as others say, Tomkins at 6 and Lomax at 1. But please let's have Brough and not Sinfield, who at best should be a bench hooking option.
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| Myler is the form scrum-half in Super League this year. It's just not fashionable to say so.
Tomkins has to play full-back as the stand-out threat in the English team. I'd probably go with Widdop as stand-off.
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| Quote ="Paul Youane"Myler is the form scrum-half in Super League this year. It's just not fashionable to say.'"
I agree. He was massively influencial in Wire's tremendous win against Widnes over the Easter Period. For that reason alone he's a shoe-in for me.
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| Quote ="MattyB"I agree. He was massively influencial in Wire's tremendous win against Widnes over the Easter Period. For that reason alone he's a shoe-in for me.'"
Attacking Stats
MYLER
6 TRIES
40 ATTACKING KICKS
4.9 AV. GAIN
135 CARRIES
8 CLEAN BREAKS
0 DROP GOALS
0 FOURTY TWENTIES
0 GOALS
54 KICKS IN GENERAL PLAY
26 MARKER TACKLES
657 METERS
15 OFFLOADS
25 TACKLE BUSTS
9 TRY ASSISTS
Attacking Stats
GREEN
5 TRIES
32 ATTACKING KICKS
4.1 AV. GAIN
136 CARRIES
5 CLEAN BREAKS
0 DROP GOALS
1 FOURTY TWENTIES
0 GOALS
66 KICKS IN GENERAL PLAY
18 MARKER TACKLES
556 METERS
3 OFFLOADS
11 TACKLE BUSTS
11 TRY ASSISTS
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| Quote ="Builth Wells Wire"Attacking Stats
MYLER
6 TRIES
40 ATTACKING KICKS
4.9 AV. GAIN
135 CARRIES
8 CLEAN BREAKS
0 DROP GOALS
0 FOURTY TWENTIES
0 GOALS
54 KICKS IN GENERAL PLAY
26 MARKER TACKLES
657 METERS
15 OFFLOADS
25 TACKLE BUSTS
9 TRY ASSISTS
Attacking Stats
GREEN
5 TRIES
32 ATTACKING KICKS
4.1 AV. GAIN
136 CARRIES
5 CLEAN BREAKS
0 DROP GOALS
1 FOURTY TWENTIES
0 GOALS
66 KICKS IN GENERAL PLAY
18 MARKER TACKLES
556 METERS
3 OFFLOADS
11 TACKLE BUSTS
11 TRY ASSISTS'"
Not one forty-twenty yet? Poor.
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| Quote ="never had it"Sinfield has a great kicking game. You get as good if not better from Brough. My point is, a structured game plan has failed time and time again. To illustrate this if you watch Wigan's set plays they are devastating against all but the best defences in SL. But the best teams deal with it. Aus and Kiwi defences need something different to get through. I would not normally endorse Chase, but we need an X factor. The only other option would be as others say, Tomkins at 6 and Lomax at 1. But please let's have Brough and not Sinfield, who at best should be a bench hooking option.'"
If Eddie and Stevo had their way, Sinfield could play the Aussies on his own, backing up in every other position. Tonight's commentary was beyond ridiculous. You'd have thought Leeds had massacred Wire rather than beaten them by six points or whatever it was, and Sinfield made several quite noticeable errors, including one which directly led to a Warrington try.
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| Never heard them talk about Tomkins?
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| Quote ="Cruncher"If Eddie and Stevo had their way, Sinfield could play the Aussies on his own, backing up in every other position. Tonight's commentary was beyond ridiculous. You'd have thought Leeds had massacred Wire rather than beaten them by six points or whatever it was, and Sinfield made several quite noticeable errors, including one which directly led to a Warrington try.'"
A lot of people would say they go overboard on Tomkins but the commentary I've heard about Sinfiels these past two weeks has been borderline insane!
Didn't notice he was playing tonight and he was poor at Catalan coming up with a few errors yet you'd think he'd won both games on his own listening to the sky boys.
As a leader and a bloke Sinfield seems a good egg and I'm sure he'd say he was a little below par at the moment regardless of being brown nosed by Eddie and co.
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| Quote ="Builth Wells Wire"Attacking Stats
MYLER
6 TRIES
40 ATTACKING KICKS
4.9 AV. GAIN
135 CARRIES
8 CLEAN BREAKS
0 DROP GOALS
0 FOURTY TWENTIES
0 GOALS
54 KICKS IN GENERAL PLAY
26 MARKER TACKLES
657 METERS
15 OFFLOADS
25 TACKLE BUSTS
9 TRY ASSISTS
'"
Impressive stats, unfortunately he'll be back playing a minor support role once Briers is fit.
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| Quote ="tony1983"Never heard them talk about Tomkins?
'"
Tomkins is the best attack player in the UK.
Sinfield isn't even the best loose forward.
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| Quote ="Cruncher"Tomkins is the best attack player in the UK.
Sinfield isn't even the best loose forward.'"
Good job he hasn't played at loose forward for three years then. At least watch the game before commenting.
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| Sinfield has to play for me, his kicking game and leadership is crucial. How anyone can say otherwise is beyond me. He's a proven leader and we would be a poorer team without him.
The question is who we play alongside him. I'd also be tempted (as suggested above) to at least try Tomkins in the halves against the Exiles and see what happens.
When we played the Aussies last they built their defensive game plan around stopping Tomkins and it worked, especially in the 4N final. We need different options, and going with Chase/Sinfield/Tomkins doesn't give any flexibility and is very obvious IMO.
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| Quote ="Albion"Sinfield has to play for me, his kicking game and leadership is crucial. How anyone can say otherwise is beyond me. He's a proven leader and we would be a poorer team without him.
The question is who we play alongside him. I'd also be tempted (as suggested above) to at least try Tomkins in the halves against the Exiles and see what happens.
When we played the Aussies last they built their defensive game plan around stopping Tomkins and it worked, especially in the 4N final. We need different options, and going with Chase/Sinfield/Tomkins doesn't give any flexibility and is very obvious IMO.'"
Now we have options such as Hardaker at FB then I agree, why not try Sam at 6/7?
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| We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.
Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.
Again a big if, but if all our best backs play to their absolute best - especially the 3/4s - then we at least look capable of matching Australia physically out wide (I wouldn't suggest for a second we look better).
So, if all goes well it would come down to halfbacks, where sadly we look hopelessly outgunned. I keep changing my mind on Tomkins - in attack he can play the same role regardless, it really comes down to where you want to put him in defence. Sometimes I think at fullback he'll have to make fewer tackles, and then I think of him being rained with bombs.
In any event McNamara picks Sinfield precisely because he offers control, and some kind of kicking game. Ideally we'd have Brough, Chase, Widdopp etc able to do the same. However, Brough looks sketchy at times, Widdopp doesn't run his team, and Chase has very little sense of control at all. I'd love it if GB had a better attacking option than Sinfield who could also control the game, but IMO we don't - or at least nobody who does it consistently.
In the end I suspect that no matter if all our players are fit and in the form of their lives, we'll come undone in large part through not having world class halfbacks. Tomkins is our one genuine hope there, but may be a bit outgunned in a Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in the Empire Strikes Back kind of way.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.
Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.
Again a big if, but if all our best backs play to their absolute best - especially the 3/4s - then we at least look capable of matching Australia physically out wide (I wouldn't suggest for a second we look better).
So, if all goes well it would come down to halfbacks, where sadly we look hopelessly outgunned. I keep changing my mind on Tomkins - in attack he can play the same role regardless, it really comes down to where you want to put him in defence. Sometimes I think at fullback he'll have to make fewer tackles, and then I think of him being rained with bombs.
In any event McNamara picks Sinfield precisely because he offers control, and some kind of kicking game. Ideally we'd have Brough, Chase, Widdopp etc able to do the same. However, Brough looks sketchy at times, Widdopp doesn't run his team, and Chase has very little sense of control at all. I'd love it if GB had a better attacking option than Sinfield who could also control the game, but IMO we don't - or at least nobody who does it consistently.
In the end I suspect that no matter if all our players are fit and in the form of their lives, we'll come undone in large part through not having world class halfbacks. Tomkins is our one genuine hope there, but may be a bit outgunned in a Luke Skywalker vs Darth Vader in the Empire Strikes Back kind of way.'"
Well summed up.
I think we need an element of surprise to beat them but we also just need some control from halfback. Sinfield and Tomkins could 'possibly' bring it for us.
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| No one has mentioned what could be an halfback partnership that could be devastating and take the Aussies by surprise.
Keven Sinfield and Paul Wellens.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"We will NEVER beat Australia by playing some form of unstructured, chuck the ball around and hope game. Australia will be moved around by halfbacks who plan and excute a whole set of 6. They will not be phased defensively by panicky offloads or hail mary passes.
Where I think England have a better chance than before is that if everyone is fit and on form we MAY have a pack that can stand up to Australia and even give them a bit of a kicking. If G+S Burgess, Graham, Ellis, Hock and a few others play to their best, I don't think Australia would fancy any kind of forward-oriented game at all.'"
Agree.
England should have a strong pack so they will need a #7 with a good kicking game and the ability to link with the back line, Sam Tomkins in particular.
They don't need a headless Chook like Rangi Chase, the best man for the job is Matty Smith.
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| Wilkin and Wellens by a mile. . . .
I'd like to see:
1 Lomax (provided he maintains his electric pre-injury form, Hardaker if not)
6 Tomkins
7 Sinfield
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"Wilkin and Wellens by a mile. . . .
I'd like to see:
1 Lomax (provided he maintains his electric pre-injury form, Hardaker if not)
6 Tomkins
7 Sinfield'"
Ditto.
Sinfield's ability to control a game is crucial against Aus and NZ. I'm determined not to get excited about England as I've foolishly done that before, but if we can keep the main players fit and they fire on all cylinders then we've got the bones of a decent enough team.
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I'm determined not to get excited about England as I've foolishly done that before, but if we can keep the main players fit and they fire on all cylinders then we've got the bones of a decent enough team.'"
Agree
If I was picking today:
1 Lomax
2 Charnley
3 Pryce (preferred to Atkins as I worry about his defence)
4 Watkins
5 Hall
6 Tomkins
7 Sinfield
8 S Burgess
9 McIlorum
10 Graham
11 Westwood
12 Farrell
13 O'Loughlin
14 Roby
15 G Burgess
16 Hock
17 Hill
You'll probably deride me for bias, but wouldn't be surprised to see Walmsley as a bolter for the squad - looks immense early doors for Saints and would provide more impact than Hill from the bench IMO.
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