I know there are many who don't appreciate threads concerning Union, however, the supposed connection with Saracens makes this interesting reading. Saracens have just lost their Heineken Cup quarter final game to French side Clermont Auvergne and their director of rugby is blaming it (plus the absence of any English club left in the competition) on a lack of funds.

Saracens McCall said: "You could almost see the difference in the salary caps as you looked down on the pitch at various times today, there is no question about that. The squad they were able to bring is outstanding and the stats don't lie. It is getting increasingly difficult to get into the quarter-final stages." He goes on to say that the French operate a salary cap much greater than the £4.2 mio allowed for English clubs.

Given Saracens appetite for players with league connections and what seems a direct channel into the main artery of league talent, there could be a case for being a little less accommodating with what seems a bit of a trojan horse.

The Leicester coach was on Sky last night saying pretty much the same thing and wanting an increase in the cap so that they could go out and get more quality players into there squads.

He quoted a figure of an increase of £1m so increasing there cap to over £5m.

I really do not see how there club game can be viable with such an increase.

Quote ="Pie minister"I really do not see how there club game can be viable with such an increase.'" It only is for those with deep pockets - like in RL. Wasps look in worse poo than us Bulls. www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/ap ... gotiations

Quote ="Pie minister"I really do not see how there club game can be viable with such an increase.'" It only is for those with deep pockets - like in RL. Wasps look in worse poo than us Bulls. www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2012/ap ... gotiations

It's strange how some teams like Northapton Saints and Lecicester make millions each season I think Northampton had a profit of £13 million + last year but clubs like Sale and now Wasps seem to be leaking money and their debts constantly wiped out by their owners.

Northampton made a profit of around £800,000. Their total turnover was just above £13mil!

slightly related......any of you noticed the london 7's and baba ads running at the top of the page haha

And my degree is all about applied accounting

, £800,000 for a Union side who where high in the league and got to the Heineken Cup final isn't as high as I was expecting. Their ticket pricing is a joke as well I don't know how any one can charge £40 for 80 minutes of club Rugby Union.

To be honest, I think Saracens have already got their Trojan horse behind our gates, in the form of Andy Farrell. I'm not saying Faz would go out and try to poach Wigan players off his own bat, but if Saracens asked who at Wigan is worth looking at and who might switch, he'll have the inside track. I'm also sure that he wouldn't say no if asked to make a few phone-calls - RU pays his wages now, not RL.

There are serious suggestions Farrell will be moving to his temporary English role full time and leaving Sarries. As for the Union threat I think most league supporters are over paranoid.

[urlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2122633/RFU-look-appoint-Andy-Farrell.html?ito=feeds-newsxml[/url
[urlhttp://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/england/9190883/Can-Andy-Farrell-be-trusted-to-make-the-right-call-over-son-Owen-if-he-is-an-England-selector.html[/url

Maybe, but losing a home-grown star like Joel Tomkins, shortly after he's just signed a new five-year contract, does give you pause for thought.

Strangely we are a stronger side this year with out Joel Tomkins, Goulding has been far superior in the than Joel was or could ever be and our left defense is no longer horror show every game. Hock is simply a much better second rower than Joel ever was and his return has completely eased the loss. We have a production line of talent that will time and time again nullify the loss of any Union converts.

Until that production line get picked clean as well.

Don't get me wrong - I don't think Wigan are particularly in danger at present, due primarily to the club having our best lads tied up on decent deals. But I never get this argument that it doesn't matter if we lose them because we can always produce more. To me that's Aussie-style bravado which has no real place in the British game.

Think how potentially strong our international team would be if we hadn't lost the likes of Joel, Eastmond and Ashton AND had the new players that you're talking about.

Yes, the threat from RU does get overstated by some. But it isn't imaginary. Anyone at the club will tell you that RU scouts are regularly hanging around, and that some players's agents are never happy unless they are marketing their clients to RU, even though they are on existing contracts.

I think the problem with the Joel defection was that it proved no matter how loyal we may think a player is, how strong his family ties to RL, how deeply steeped he is in our game, how much we think he is securely contracted ... he can still be lured away if the money is right.

Ashton wouldn't get a spot in the current Wigan set up and with his ego I wouldn't want him around our club any way, as for Joel he be behind Ellis, Hock and Westwood in the pecking order. Eastmond is the only substantial loss to Union in recent years but Lomax his replacement at Saints is proving to be a quality player who I'm sure will be in the international fold pretty soon. The odd player will defect for money but thats their choice I certainly wouldn't a removal of the cap and teams going down the route of Bradford. IL showed we can compete to a certain degree with Union wages as shown with Sam's £300,000 a year.

And then may follow Kyle. Look, we all have our own opinions on the matter. For what it's worth, I wasn't talking about the cap, though that hasn't stopped clubs overspending. I don't know what the solution is re. union. I guess we'll just have to look after our own, and hope that IL can continue to hang onto the likes of Sam.

If you read McCall's quotes in full he actually suggests that yawnion should have a two-tier cap system that allows teams that play in Europe to spend more than the teams that don't. How that can possibly be fair I'll never know and sounds like pie-in-the-sky stuff to me. Still, any sort of cap raising going on in the dark side will get league folk in a right tizz

I think you've only got to look to the geography as to why some RU clubs are healthy whilst others aren't.

Sale, Wasps, Sarries are in soccer heartlands, with all the will in the world, Northampton & Leicester aren't & so those who simply want to watch any sort of quality game will gravitate to them (and I don't know much about French soccer, but I don't think there are many "big" French teams near to Clermont-Ferrand).

We're an anomaly only because Latics have been dossing around in the lower leagues since time began. And I don't think it's a coincidence that there's a large density of RL clubs in & around the rhubarb triangle.

The threat from RU poaching our players will remain until one of them gets into the same straits as Glasgow Rangers because they've mismanaged (or misappropriated, in my personal view) the odd million and the "Old Farts in Suits" finally take note that they're spending above their budget.

They're different types of Second Rowers. Hock is probably more talented, but we still miss Joel Tomkins. Imagine having to face Hansen, Tomkins and Hock - teams wouldn't know what to do!

This is the sad thing about it for me. Yes, it's great that new stars come through to fill gaps, but it wouldn't it be even better if those gaps weren't there, and new stars came through anyway and were able to play alongside the existing stars?

Joel was on £250,000 a year we would struggle to sustain them three playing high quality rugby wage and than accommodate the likes of Sam and his new deal along with future big contracts for say Charnley or Russell.

When you look at the Heineken Cup semi finalist, you have two Irish, one Scottish and one French Club. Also, when you look at the sides winning the competition or being in the latter stages, the Irish are always there or thereabouts.

Ireland has a fairly small and conservative rugby playing population and cannot compare its wealth with the likes of England and France, but it keeps its players and has successful teams playing in Europe. I don't fully understand the mechanics of the Irish set up, but central contracting by the IRFU is part of the answer and the need to be playing in Ireland helps the International prospects. Is there something in the Irish model that could be applied in league?

not unless you first fix the problem with international exposure and it's financial rewards

This problem for English union sides has been coming for 5-10 years. Its a simple equation there is too many full time professional sides in 1 small area. Wales has 4 sides Scotland has 3-4 and Ireland has 4-5. England has 2 divisions of almost full time staff and its costing a fortune to run. Especially on the gates and income some are doing. Whatever they get from the RFU is shared by over 10 clubs at the highest level.

RFU wanted around a decade ago to go to regional sides as Wales and most of the other sides in the six nations have. Instead of upping the cap it needs less sides but that will never happen and its now costing the English sides a fortune in trying to keep up with most of the competition as the club sides in France, Wales and Ireland are getting stronger with mainly home-grown talent. Whilst France can cherry pick most players they want they generally get 1 or 2 going over every season. English union problem is much bigger than rising the cap for clubs to spend more as the question is where will the money go home grown talent or as Saracens do get overseas players in on a fortune.

Interesting to see that Stephen Jones has gone from Scarlets to Wasps considering Wasps are in a financially mess apparently. Its rather nice to see the lack of vision by the English Clubs a decade ago will now lead to a problem for them now. Only thing they will do by upping the cap is putting bigger pressure on the clubs that can not afford it. But as we see in League rising the cap has its own problems but at least the RFL considers the situation of every club unlike 1 or 2 owners in union who just see themselves. They need less clubs so its best players are playing for 4-5 clubs instead of 10 or more. This is why Wales are so strong atm internationally as most have played with eachother for a while now. A bit like us.

According to this report, he's staying at saracens. [urlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2128654/Andy-Farrell-rejects-England-role-Stuart-Lancaster.html[/url

So I just saw on the BBC website, it goes to show the media probably wanted him in that role and ran these stories to influence the out come.