I posted this on the VT because I think it is a major area where the English game falls short compared to the NRL and I would also be interested what fellow Wigan fans think.

I firmly believe that a major factor in the lack of intensity in many games is down to the amateurish set up at many clubs and the current training and tactics. We are years behind NRL clubs in that regard and at some clubs it is far from professional. We all know stories about friends of coaches getting conditioning jobs etc with little or no experience or qualifications. Some clubs also just have a jack of all trades conditioner who has little real knowledge of things like sprinting or weight training. Just looking at my own club, Wigan, it was apparent throughout the Noble era that our training methods were poor, as were the backroom staff and the tactics left a lot to be desired. Noble was, and still is by some, considered to be one of the best British coaches in the game and was coach of GB. However the differece at the club since he left has been stark and shown just how far behind the times we were. There has been a similar change at Warrington with Tony Smith and it has been obvious in their play.

Fast forward to this season and look at the difference a change of coach and change of backroom staff have made. There have been huge improvements in all areas due to the introduction of better training methods with equipment like GPS systems being used, better conditioning, better tactics etc. This is all with much the same team. Almost every player has been fitter, stronger, faster and shown better technique than the previous season. I know of players who have never been taught to run properly etc until this season and have got another yard or two of pace, the same can be said about techniques in the tackle that have given the defence another second or two to get back and the line speed of players in defence. You can go on and on but all these little improvements have led to a big improvement in not just the team but the individual players. There is absolutely no reason why this cant be replicated at every club. I dont want to turn this into a my club is great post but imagine if this was replicated at all SL clubs, the improvements in playing standards, intensity etc would be great, even with exactly the same players. I appreciate that some clubs are already well down this line but many arent, in particular the poorer clubs.

Clubs will easily pay £150,000 for an over the hill player but wont spend the same on 2 or 3 top quality conditioning, strength, sprinting coaches who will probably make the team much better and will produce much better younger players. Michael Maguire and Mark Bitcon are the best signings the club could have made and have proved much more valuable than an over the hill Australian. If clubs arent going to make these improvements they should be forced to use a portion of their Sky money on a better backroom set up. This would in turn increase the intensity of the game here and produce better players both in terms of there conditioning and skill. One reason I think that some imports are so poor is that they come here and dont train to the same standards as in the NRL and as a result just arent the same players. Another thing we continually look to catch up to Australia and New Zealand by replicating what they do. They innovate and get the latest training methods from NFL clubs etc. The clubs in this country should be doing this too instead of merely copying Australia and being one step ahead what they do in Australia. Yes we may still not be on a par with Australia and New Zealand but we would be a damn site closer than we are now and could at least compete for 80 mins. Yes obviously expansion and getting new people to play the game to increase the talent pool etc will help but if they are coming into the same amateurish set ups then little will change.

Very valid points, well made.

But in answer to your basic question, can the English game learn from Wigan - yes it can, but like last time, it probably won't.

In fact, if past form is anything to go by, once the dust has settled on this latest international debacle, the English game will probably invent reasons why Wigan's 2010 victory was somehow unjust (and in time will start to believe them), and will introduce 'radical' new rules to outlaw the use of professional backroom staff, so that we will then have a more level playing field.

I think it is a bit strong to suggest that today's loss constitutes an international debacle. I think England were not that far behind Australia and with better referring decisions and luck in the 50/50 calls the game could have been very interesting indeed.

This is supposedly the worst Aussie side in years though (if you believe their media)

Well a couple of their best players weren't playing, which, of course they made a big issue out of ... but at the end of the day, they were a heck of a lot better than us, and I don't think denying that will make any difference to the basic truth of it.

Australia can play much better than that, and they still won comfortably.

I don't think we've even come close to matching the Kangaroos since the early 90s, when a clutch of very talented British players had all come through the ranks at the same time and, because a significant number of them played together at Wigan, they looked a well-oiled unit when they pulled the GB shirt on.

IMO, you need extra special talents in your side to match Aus, and we don't reallly have any of those at the present time, let alone 13 of them. I'm not sure what the answer is, because that's not a problem you can resolve overnight.

One thing has to be certain - appointing an international coach who basically got released from his club position because he wasn't good enough was always going to be a disaster. The Aussies must have been left agog when they heard about that.

Iv looked on several webssites with no avail, What was the attandance at the NZ v PNG game yesterday just saw the highlights on the BBC and looked very sp.

the thing that stands out for me is SPEED, in everything they do its all done at speed, far quicker then us in most departments. this is one department that id like us to improve as a competition and a nation. next season in super league i want to see faster/cleaner ptb, thats been a huge improvement in the nrl this year and i want to see it in super league.

Mal Reilly was saying this ten years ago when he had come back from coaching Newcastle Knights, his autobiography is full of stuff like this.

But this is also the worst england/GB team i have seen in my 25 years of watching and with the most inept coach i have seen in charge of our national team. Couple this with the fact that 3 of the aussie tries should have been chalked off and i don't think we did that badly. Am i the only one?

No not at all. I do agree as I thought we'd get nailed. I was just making a point.

nope

TBH the only answer to these internationals as is is "F it, It ain't worth it"

Nothing is going right.
Coach- awful
Officials (as always)- awful
England- left wanting

We need to tell the Colin Love in Sydney where to shove these internationals.

RLIF and RFL should be ashamed. They have made a mockery of the test.

Yeah he was and his book is a good read.

It has been obvious for years and should be even more obvious after Wigan's transformation. However you can gaurantee that the same clubs will stumble into next season having learned absolutely nothing from the season before.

You can't go telling clubs what they can and can't train their players - each and every club has its own agenda and the RFL could never tell them how to do things. So in that respect can England learn off Wigan? IMO No.

IMHO it comes down to something else - strength in depth.

You mention over-the-hill Aussies, and your right in mentioning them. These players are killing our game, they stop younger players coming through and developing. Yes they may come with a decent reputation and all that boll*x but to halt the path of a young eager, determined player is IMO just not acceptable, especially if said youth is good enough.

This was mentioned on here a week or two ago I think - the RFL should link up with the RFU and create a partnership at grassroots level, just encouraging kids to play rugby, be it RL or RU. This way both codes find talented youngsters, yes we'll lose some to RU but flip the coin and we gain some too. Alot of youngsters down south/midlands even up north just want to play sport (football being the obvious, but then more often than not rugby). Due to the lack of RL teams around they turn to RU, and pretty much stay there.

Now if the RFL and the RFU partnered, kids could play both, decide which is best for them and stick to it. Yeah this probably will cost money and take time to get going but honestly I seriously believe that a set-up such as this will seriously help RL in the long run.

I know some people will write this off without a thought, probably even the seemingly inept, expansion focused RFL.

Which brings me to my last point - the RFL are so caught up in expanding and improving other area's, even countries quality of RL that they are forgetting the one master key to really kicking on RL in the UK - a successful national team.

RU did it by winning the WC, Cricket team did it by winning the Ashes - look at them now, both sports are barely out of the news. Whereas RL National side is seen as a laughing stock.
Concentrate on England first and foremost, let the WRL and FRL worry about themselves IMHO.

Everyone agrees there are far too many imports and of a quality that does nothing for the progress of SL.
However, there are plenty imports who do a hell of a lot to improve SL.
Many imports are brought in as clubs don't have enough quality younger players coming through. These are a majority of clubs in SL.
Then there are the likes of Hull who have had a raft of younger players who in their first season look great then go backwards due to poor quality coaching at the club.
The Aussies are looking at replacing their salary cap with a points system which rewards clubs who bring through their own talent. Something like 4 points maximum for a club trained International whereas an International player from another club would be 7 or 8 points. I think the allocation was 100 points for the 17 named for a game.
As has been said, we either have to make allowances under our sal cap for club trained players or, alternativelty replace the SC as the Aussies are doing with a system that makes it essential that clubs have a majority of players taking the field who have been trained by that club.
We have a dearth of quality younger players coming through in SL and the clubs need to do something about it very soon.
If the Aussies increase their players numbers under the new system and we stand still things will get a lot worse than they were in Melbourne last weekend.
For anyone to suggest that other clubs in SL could learn from Wigan would bring a very hostile reception indeed.
They might well learn something from Wigan, to publicly admit it is another thing altogether.

Wigan have just signed three Aussies. Their ages don't matter. They've signed them and at least one will likely be playing in a position where England are desparate for 'strength in depth' (halfback). On top of that, Wigan will be competing with one Aussie winger and an antipodean fullback. Both are positions in which England have no players of the right ability.

Is this what you all mean by learning from Wigan?

Poor effort.

At least all the key British players we've got are prepared to play for their country. That's one reason why the game could learn from us rather than from St Helens.

On top of that we will be competing with 10 home grown first team regulars, 4 englishmen (2 from wigan), and possibly up to 10 extra home grown fringe players.

Yes thats what we mean by learning from Wigan.

Really? Not one St Helens player has turned down the opportunity to play for his country.

Really?

Next season we will have two Aussies and three Samoans in our squad. That is in our whole squad. Of the squad minus our leavers from this season, 19 will be home grown. At present our squad will have 31 players (including the one young player I know that has been promoted for 2011). All of them bar the newbie have played at first grade and/or are first choice in their positions, regardless of age. As the media said, Saints are leading the way on playing home grown players for the third year running. It's Saints that the English game can learn from in this respect, not Wigan. Because without clubs bringing through English talent into a first team environment, especially in the backline, there is no hope of England winning on the international scene.

I can't comment on the coach situation because we have just ditched a poor one and are waiting to see what the new one brings. He's keen on skills training though, so that could be something else the English game could learn from Saints. However, that remains to be seen.

Another pious Saints twit who seriously expects the world to believe that Saints are somehow of superior moral quality to everyone else (when the real truth behind his club's lack of overseas signing is because they haven't got the money for it).

Wigan are bringing through plenty of kids as well. So that's the end of that conversation. But the main point of this thread was not about that, and it was not difficult to understand. Wigan have won the Grand Final with a team which, last year, was the ultimate bunch of also-rans. They made very little go a long way through superlative coaching, conditioning, backroom organisation, etc. If it worked for us, perhaps it can work across the game. That's all the guy was really saying. But then, given the bloke you've appointed to oversee that part of your operation, it doesn't surprise me that you've failed to grasp this

Pity you don't get a trophy for that.

So basically you think you are superior and better because you have a massive 2 less overseas players than us



Have you even read the original post?

Its not all about investing in youth.

But the original poster referred to "over the hill Aussies". Ryan Hoffman and Brett Finch are hardly over the hill and Jeff Lima is a Kiwi who is an excellent player in his own right. If you bother to read the original post and the other posts some posters have made, top quality aussies aren't killing our game or holding us back. In fact, Aussies of a high quality actually improve our competition and our own players. They provide tougher competition and can pass on some of their own experience ot the younger players at clubs. Many of our back row forwards have sighted Phil Bailey as having a massive influence on their careers & Wigan now currently have some of (if not the) best back row forwards in the game. Another example is Sam Tomkins who sights Trent Barrett has having a major influence upon his game.

Can't wait to feast my eyes on those two fantastic young St Helens Academy products Shenton and McCarthy-Scarsbrook next season.