Let me exaggerate the situation in order to illustrate the point. If we played 1 game and won it for a hundred per cent record (but played lots of games in other different competitions) and you played 28 games including a 27 game unbeaten run but lost the last one, would that make us genuine champions in your eyes? Also would you call that an even competition?

It doesn't matter that you played more games in a different competition; we are discussing the Superleague and how you had an advantage in that competition.

I'm not even sure how you see any room for argument. It's a simple statement of fact.

But we didn't win the comp on that did we? We had to win a knockout game and then a Final so I'm really not sure what your point is here. If it is that we played less games so we were fresher then I've argued against that with the CC run, whether its a different comp or not its still extra games.

It would be an advantage if we finished top of the table due to a skewed win percentage, played less games and then were awarded the trophy but it wasn't like that.

I give Saints huge credit for building this side under this salary cap and for keeping it mainly together. It’s something we cannot seem to do and there’s no doubt that frustrates all Wigan fans. Ultimately though it’s a level playing field now and it was a level playing field in the late 90’s/early 2000’s. Even with a cap some spend more than others, just as they did back then and I don’t place any higher value in success now than I would’ve done then.

The matter is subjective as you say but unless there is a real surge in the overall quality of this league, this Saints side could make it 4, 5, 6 or whatever titles in the trot and I still won’t have it as the best superleague side ever or even the best Saints side. I mean look at the comparisons-Lyon or Percival? Newlove or Hopoate? Long or Dodds? Sculthorpe or Knowles? A prime Cunningham and a prime Roby working together or a 36 year old Roby and Lussick?

We couldn’t win a title in those early 2000’s with a side containing Radlinski, Jason Robinson, Connolly, Steve Renouf, Adrian Lam, Terry Newton, Craig Smith, Andy Farrell etc. That lot would fold this current Saints team in half as well. That isn’t disrespectful, it’s just how it would be.

The game over here has gone backwards for years, in the main our better players have headed off to Australia and we’re at a stage now where the quality is pretty low in general. So if you think people think Saints are ‘the best of a bad bunch’ I’d say you’re on the right lines unfortunately.

On the plus side for Saints they are showing exactly what can be done even in times like these. You can build a high quality side, even with all the disadvantages this comp has and I really hope Saints get the credit they’ll deserve eventually for raising standards over here. Teams need to be forced to raise their games and Saints will absolutely make any side who wants to be successful do that.

It's really simple; In order to have an even competition all teams would have to play the same number of games. Are you disagreeing with this statement?

Different competitions are irrelevant to the competition we're discussing. No one is challenging your Challenge Cup victory. All the Superleague teams were set the same challenge to win that competition and you came out on top. That can't be said of the League. Surely you must recognise this?

It's really simple; In order to have an even competition all teams would have to play the same number of games. Are you disagreeing with this statement? If it was the team finishing top of the table wins it then I would agree with you. The fact remains that us playing less games didn't win us the trophy due to that. It merely enabled us to qualify for the play offs which we then had to win a knockout game and a Final to lift the trophy. Or do you not agree with that?

The point I made about the CC win was that you then can't say "you played less games so were more fresh than other teams"

I'm not sure what point you are trying to make. Are you saying that had Saints played another couple of games then the rest of the league would have been more competetive with Saints and Catalans? If not, what is your point and how is it relevant to the SL win?

You make some valid points no question. On a personal level I agree that the Saints side of 2000-2002 was arguably our best ever in terms of quality, skill level etc. Although played in a completely different era, if the two sides played each other hypothetically then I think the 2000 side wins.

That is why I mentioned the statistics part. Whether you like it or not or even agree, if we do win 4 in a row then this team will undoubtedly be referred to as the best in SL History.

On a different note its certainly nice to debate when done constructively.

This thread is now approaching 100 posts, it was about 10 on Saturday night

Teams playing a different number of games had little bearing on the Saints trophy wins for me. I thought the whole non selection of Saints players for the Exiles team and England pull outs was a bit naughty though tbh, as was the post cup final ‘Covid outbreak’ and one of the reasons for that is Saints are that far in front of everyone else, I didn’t think stuff like that was needed and lacked a bit of class. Saints could’ve won the lot last year without Woolf playing those sort of games.

Well that's exactly the point; we'll never know as it didn't happen. Had you played the extra couple of games and lost several players to injury, for example, would that have affected your playoff chances? Again, we'll never know as it didn't happen but I'd suggest that there's a fair chance it would have, especially given results when you do play a weakened team.

It's really simple. The competition wasn't an even one . The 2 finalists gained an advantage by playing fewer games in that competition. They're just statements of fact. No one can say what would have happened had that not been the case. Perhaps the result would have been the same, perhaps not. What isn't in doubt, though, is that it wasn't an even competition. As I say, that's just a simple statement of fact.

Now that IS something we can agree on!

At Saints it might be but in general, I can’t see it.

I liken your situation currently to that of Celtic in the Scottish Premiership a couple of years back. I have a Cousin in Ireland who loves them. He goes over for every home game and was buzzing around the time of them winning the treble treble, going for ten titles in a row etc. Similar comments about being the best of all time, being history makes was being thrown around but the truth? They were dominating a dreadful competition. They could win 50 titles on the trot if the quality stayed as it is currently (or was at that time) and they still wouldn’t be the best ever. The Celtic side of the current day and from that time they did the treble treble would lose against the Celtic side of the early 2000’s (containing a prime Henrick Larsson) and co by 4 or 5 goals every week and the Lisbon Lions team wouldn’t break a sweat, so it might be a statistical best in the superleague era but the reality is it just isn’t as valuable because of the standards being so low across the board.

I'm not sure why Stu is so keen for accreditation of the current team from elsewhere, he should just enjoy the moment



The game is very different and I can see from the evidence of my own eyes that previous Saints teams would struggle to break this one down. It certainly wouldn't be the cakewalk some are suggesting - I've seen enough superstar Saints teams destroyed by NRL teams to know that they weren't up against that much in terms of week to week intensity at the time.

For sure we have had better individuals since 1996 but that isn't everything. And in any event, winning 4 will be a tremendous achievement - whether or not this is the best team SL has seen (I'd say not), winning 4 is something nobody has ever managed and would be, as a matter of fact, the longest winning run in fully professional RL history.

Behave.

Amazing achievement, but its a sub-standard competition.

Everyone is playing under the same rules, so yeah 4 on the trot would be a great achievement and is something to celebrate. Unfortunately for Morgan Knowles (whose comments this debate stems from) and anyone associated with Saints, if they expect the game to recognise it as making Saints the best side of the superleague era, they’ll be in for a disappointment IMO.

The biggest games that would give this Saints side kudos would be World Club challenges but they’ve unfortunately been shelved. If you had beat Melbourne or Penrith this last two years I think it would’ve added huge weight. I suspect you’d have been disposed of pretty comfortably but we’ll never know.

Saints won both competitions last season and played 27 games. Just in Super League and the playoffs alone they played less games than five other teams.

Wigan won f*** all, didn't make either semi final and played 28.

In a standard season when you win the double, you usually end up playing 5 or 6 more than most teams and play every week from February to October. That didn't happen last year. We played 35 as a comparison in 2013.

The issues that happened last season (and maybe even the one before) were of a benefit to that Saints side no doubt. Had every team played the same number of matches to qualify as happened in football then fair enough.

Four in a row is a great achievement BTW, but I would say the current three-peat isn't as good as the Leeds one was. They had to beat Saints three years in a row (as well as a good Wigan and a good Wire), and there simply isn't a team as good as that Saints one in the league at the moment.

saints 06 team would murder this team, also could easily see them nil them too

I've just got home after a few days touring the Yorkshire Wolds with my daughter and son in law. With nothing much to do sat in the back of the car for mile after mile my mind went back to the previous say's news of Saints defeat in France. As I am known to do from time to time I was inspired to go into composing mode. What follows is the result.

TO LOSE TO TOULOUSE

On Billinge Hill the beacon’s lit
They’re sending out the news
That Saints have had a massive hit
It’s to lose to Toulouse

In Scholes they’re dancing in the street
They’re rolling out the booze
And all you hear when people meet
Is to lose to Toulouse..

The Wires have cast aside their woes
And laughed away the blues
Our losing streak just grows and grows
But, to lose to Toulouse.

Paul Sculthorpe’s face has gone quite red
His hair to greyish hues
We’ll never lose again he said
Then to lose to Toulouse.

Poor Alex Murphy’s lost for words
Ray French has blown a fuse
In the Church Square the feral birds
Tweet to lose to Toulouse

When all is said and all is done
Which ever you may choose
You must admit it’s been great fun
Has to lose to Toulouse

And so my friends this ode I send
And with it too-del-oos
As words I blend, this verse I’ll end
With to lose to Toulouse.

Awww bless you,
I never mentioned Walmsley,you lost to a better team.that is all.
We will see Good friday,if Wigan lose to better team so be it,but if Stains lose your brain cells will implode trying to figure out why you lost and then you and the rest of your kind will come up with tons of excuses.

A well balanced debate in which i can understand and agree to a degree both sides of the argument.

Not sure I’d say the best team in SL history but defensively wise I’ve not seen a better British team in over 50 years of watching the game. The line speed is phenomenal with even some of Wigan’s great defensive efforts for me, not even close to matching the current Saints team. I agree with the argument that current overall standards are lower than previous years but with such a great defence the current Saints team would give any team from any era a real game.

What they don’t have are real top class players such as a Sculthorpe, Farrell, Manninga, Murphy, Hanley or an Offiah but what they have got is a willingness to play at a very high intensity, at pace with great regularity.

If they do win 4 in a row, which I think is inevitable unless they have a series of major injuries, maybe in a few years time people may well look back and reflect upon a great and once in a lifetime team.
For me they are a bit away from that at the moment. Currently they are on a crest of a wave and their recent recruitment is light years ahead of every other team and if that continues when say Roby retires I can see their dominance continuing unless there is a general stepped improvement across the competition.

For me what does detract the overall quality of their success is that they don’t have a an ongoing formidable foe in the vein of say Saints/Wigan, Leeds/Bradford, saints/Leeds or a Wigan/Wire battles for top team dominance that were ongoing throughout the last 2 decades. Catalans had a decent 2021 but I for one just couldn’t see see them winning the gf that year nor can I see them changing that in 2022.

For all that nobody laughed longer or louder than me on Saturday night.

Wigan fans in this thread lol

Wire fan.....

Don't feed him
Hes a saints troll

It is very difficult to compare teams in different eras but it is not difficult to compare the number of trophies each club has won and in this regard Wigan are way out in front.