So you basically want an entirely new team otherwise you're not going to renew your season ticket, what happened to ancient and loyal? I'm not happy with the rugby being played and would like to see some new faces (Hodkinson would be nice if true) but it's pretty sad to see fans saying they won't renew season tickets. If you can't support a team going through the bad then don't bother turning up to the Grand Finals!

I didn't go to the GF last year and IF we get to the CC I won't be going there either.
If you want to carry on renewing your ST good for you. This is the 4th season on the bounce we have played turgid rugby so even someone as ancient as me and historically pretty loyal finally says nah this isn't for me. I still want us win but the pleasure and more importantly the excitement of watching has withered and waned.
I want to renew but the thought of more Friday's sat watching basically wrestling just isn't compelling enough. I want some freshness in style, capabilities and standards.
If you're willing to accept the current standards again good for you.

Some valid points made throughout this post, as a newbie, I am glad to see it isn't just me that was bemoaning the performance on Thursday...the display was flat, no imagination or flair in attack and the defense on the first try was abysmal, TL was left stranded by Atkins' speed at getting up to PTB and ST/Gels put in next to zero effort in stopping Jullien. We actually looked physically unfit which is quite scary to say we've made bold claims about our conditioning levels opposed to other teams. My main gripe, is that even when it starts to go wrong in the game, when we get found-out or exposed, nothing actually changes, it's like Wane or his coaches don't actually change a damn thing, it's truly annoying...this sitting tight and trusting the tactics hurts my head! I cannot believe that Shaun Wane actually thinks or believes hes tactically superior to every coach he lines up against, he must agree that in certain games, against certain coaches he will need to change things.

The team on the whole look flat, we have scraped by this year and I for one don't see any success or growth from last year. Its a step back. Even if we progress past Salford in the CC, I feel Leeds/Hull will beat us easily (maybe not by huge points, but tactically) at Wembley...but maybe thats what needs to happen to see a change.

For mine, I feel like Sam needs to be honest with himself and the club, only he knows if he's struggling or feels like his injuries are holding him back, if they are then things need to change. Micky Mc certainly needs moving on, another with an injury that looks to have slowed him even further, there is no room for sentimentality in sport or business, Leeds have shown this with Maguire and we should show the same ruthlessness. I feel young Ganson could be a real star, along with Powell who does a great job. We cannot fill every position 1-13 with star quality, but we can have good, solid players running through the team. Unfortunately, Joel Tomkins has a new contract, not a savvy move in my eyes. I am unsure on Gelling, I think if the team became more attacking minded, and he has Dom on his flank, I can see him lighting up SL and being a regular 10+ tries a season centre, at present with the game-play we have adopted, he looks way below par.

I for one am delighted Castleford have run away with the league, the style and flair they show is a breath of fresh air and hopefully a wake-up call. I am equally hoping they make the GF as seeing them match up against an Aussie counterpart in the WCC will be a showcase. Sadly, the mere thought of us "at present" lining up against a Melbourne Storm or Cronulla is terrifying!

Hi Richie welcome on board.
Agree with all that you say. I keep conveniently avoiding the ST question but you are spot on it is a major factor if we can improve from our current state.
My rants are more in frustration and sadness rather than anger. We have some decent players in Farrell,Bateman, Williams, Gildart, Burgess, Manfredi etc with some very decent youngsters coming through the ranks. The attitude within the club of us against the world attitude and drudgery of style combined with lack of basic skills at for example play 6 just leaves me in despair at times.

He didn't go!

I am still under the impression that SW is one game away from leaving his post at the end of the season. I said it before the CC QF, and we scraped through. That has now moved onto the Salford game - lose and unless the side then go on and win 6 or 7 super 8 games to scrape 4th, beat Cas in their own back yard in the SF and then win the GF, we will have a new head coach next season.

The lack of intensity and effort on Thursday tells me that all the eggs are in the Challenge Cup basket.

All eggs are obviously in the CC basket and I think have been for a while however the club will keep saying we're going for top 4 to keep SL ticket sales up (not that it's working).

Cheers Itchy



I do feel like no change will happen whilst we attain success through our methods, if we get anywhere near the top 4 and make the CC final I feel SW will still be our coach next year. Regardless of a trophy-less season, we will simply carry on as usual.

Another thing I wanted to mention was the apparent treatment of Romain Navarette...if he was told his Wigan career was over after the Leigh game, that alone tells me that there are serious, and I mean serious problems within the clubs management structure. I genuinely feel like he was struggling to get his fitness levels to the standard required by Wigan, but that is a process, he was after all an investment/project, similar to Ben Flower and Gil Dudson IIRC. His defence needed work but his go-forward was impressive. The only saving grace seems to be he was homesick, so maybe it is the best case all round. The way Shaun Wane treats the younger players worries me, yet Willie Isa, Joel Tomkins, Tommy L and Ben Flower seem exempt no matter how bad they play! If I am right, all those mentioned have played equally as bad as Romain at times.

Having said all that though, I must add I have very little idea of who we would possibly replace Shaun with...

Some random weapon posted that and there's no evidence that it's true. I agree with hengirl that Navarette was signed mainly so that Escare had a French speaking mate with him. He showed some promise but his head obviously wasn't right due to being homesick so we let him go back. No big deal at all but people are trying to make it one.

As for the way he treats younger players, how is he treating them exactly? He has a good record with young players and seems to have a very good relationship with most of them, so what is he doing wrong?

I thought we looked exhausted during the warm-up.

Just a point on that, might just be me but the warm up doesn't seem to have changed for years.
The players look like they're just going through the motions, all half hearted or mucking around.
Back in the Lowe/Monie era the warm ups seemed to get faster and faster as they went on and they would start a match in the way they'd finish the warm up.

Fair play, I didn't say it was gospel, if its a rumour then sound, no issue. The guy must just be homesick and in that case him returning home is best for all parties.

I kinda backed up my theory of his record with younger players...they get treated differently regarding performance levels than the senior players. I have no evidence of what goes on behind the scenes.

For me the Williams/Leuleai partnership is all wrong, they don't compliment each other and it's not helping Williams to play to his potential. Personally I wouldn't have signed TL, he hasn't been at the top of his game for the best part of a decade and he has brought back all of his bad habits with him, especially his god awful kicking game. Say what you like about Matty Smith but he has a better kicking game than Tommy (though god knows that's not hard) and he complimented George much better. Bringing Tommy back was fan service (like another couple of re-signings I can think of) that boosts shirt sales, not game play.

On the subject of our kicking game, apart from some attacking grubbers around the try line we have no last play game plan at all. If we are in our own half we hoof it aimlessly down field, usually into the full back's waiting hands. If we are in the opposition half, even by a meter, we put a bomb up, which most of the time goes too long to chase effectively and we gift them easy possession and yardage (the exception being when we boot it straight up and down and make no ground whatsoever). The fact that any Tom, Dick or Harry is putting these bombs up speaks volumes about our organisation in this regard.

With halfbacks it's not necessarily how well they link up together, as on many occasions they are split on each side of the field, but as you say Williams and Leuluai don't seem to compliment each other in terms of their strengths and weaknesses.

Like many going off what I've read on these forums, I wasn't a fan of Smith and thought that after 2 generally poor years we needed a change (and he probably needed that change too), but I didn't think Leuluai was the answer, given his kicking game is at best inconsistent and generally quite poor. I didn't see the logic in replacing someone whose only significant strength was a good long kicking game (something we didn't get from anyone else in the squad), and replacing him with a player whose main threat when he used to play for us was his running game.

Smith left presumably because he wasn't really doing what he was known for doing. In his last 2 years at the club his kicking game was often poor, his last tackle plays were crazy and he showed pretty much no ability to think creatively. However, we're seeing the same issues with our last tackle plays no matter who is in the side, so perhaps this is more than just an issue with our playmakers, but something completely wrong with how the team plays.

It got so frustrating last year when Smith was chucking the ball to prop forwards on the last tackle and I thought it surely had to be down to indecisiveness on his part. However, we're doing the same daft things at the end of sets. The players fail to gain repeat sets, seemingly forget what tackle it is or look for the option to run when setting up for a more conservative kick would do.

There's a slight issue for Leuluai in that he plays on the right and his ability to combine with those players around him is hampered by the constant changes down that edge. He's had Davies and Marshall on that wing, Gelling, Forsyth and Isa in the centres and J Tomkins, Isa and Wells in the second row before Bateman's return. It's hard for a halfback in a team that does try to structure its attacks when the personnel keeps changing.

However, that doesn't excuse the mistakes he's made at important times this year, particularly with some terrible kicking. Last tackle plays are vital. They can be the difference between keeping a team pinned in their own 20 and having them march down the field and score. Leuluai and Williams need to take some of the blame for our poor attacking play close to the line, but I also think that the problem lies with the entire team more than the individuals.

If you consider some of the times Williams or Leuluai have put in poor kicks on the last tackle. They need good service from whoever is passing the ball, they need the forwards on their inside to be able to hold up the defenders in the middle, they need the attacking players on their outside to be lined up correctly and offering an outlet for a pass or a kick, otherwise all the defence has to do is close the player down quickly and leave him nowhere to turn. The halves will usually get the blame for poor last tackle kicks but it definitely seems like the entire team has no idea how to organise a good last tackle play.

Absolutely agree with Cherry.Pie...I wasn't a fan of bringing TL back, but read a lot of positives saying he would bring our attacking prowess up to scratch and tbf at the beginning of the season, it looked to have worked. I do believe you have nailed it with the fact his right side has changed so much, it is difficult to find any stability or form.

Moving TL up to hooker, rotating him with Powell/Ganson, and allowing George Williams and Josh Woods to form a working partnership would be my call, both young and eager and with enough game time they would both be world beaters. I don't think anyone available would be an improvement on this. I know the rumours circulating regards Sandow and Hodgkinson are nice to read, but we can only expect 1 possible 2 years from both of these and its going to cost a lot.

Forgetting Micky at hooker or not a fan? I see a huge difference in our go forward when Micky goes off, similar to that of SOL. I just wish he could do some more minutes as we're only getting about 20 minutes a half from him at best.

I would happily take Hodkinson for two years, especially having watched him against the Broncos yesterday. Take Parcell for example, he may only do two years at Leeds but what a player he is for those two years plus the players coming up around him can learn a lot from him. Woods looks a promising player from what I've seen, imagine the experience he could get as an understudy to an Origin rep player.

I'm not convinced about Woods to be honest. In the U19's at times this year and last he's looked very good but given our resources you'd expect our halfbacks to impress most weeks. I don't think he's as impressive as the likes of Powell, Williams, Hampshire and Shorrocks have been before him. The current U19's halfback Harry Smith looks like a more promising player in my opinion.
However, I've not seen how Woods has been doing for Swinton and if he's impressed there then that shows he can perform at a higher level than the U19's. I don't think he's close to being ready for the first team and hasn't even signed a professional contract yet.

I'm a big fan of Ganson and think he's one of the most naturally gifted attacking hookers I've seen at that level. It's not so much pace and elusiveness like a Clark or Dwyer, but intelligence and ingenuity. His try creating cross field kick from a yard out at dummy half against Saints in the U19's derby is just one example of his ingenuity and vision. For me he's a player who needs first team chances and I think he's a better attacking option at dummy half than Powell.

I also prefer Leuluai at hooker, although his defence is generally outstanding when he plays in the halves. He can put in some very dangerous quick, short passes that trouble defences. And while he's never really been that direct when playing hooker on the rare occasions he does run the ball his power and footwork usually make him more dangerous than someone like Powell or McIlorum.

There's no doubt the halfbacks are our biggest issue. Our game sense is just appalling and nobody is taking control for us. We're crying out for a player with a cool head to demand the ball on the last tackle and to direct the players around him. I've never seen a worse balanced pairing then Williams and Leuluai yet both are good players in their own right.

Me too. It's more about general team organisation than individual players. I certainly think Tommy has been disappointing, especially after seeing him play well for the Warriors in his last season there, and there seems little doubt that that *some* of the reason for that can be put down to the changing personnel on the right side of our attack. I'd be happy to see both Shorrocks and Woods given more game time next season, and they both have a bit of a kicking game, don't they? It also really bugs me that we never seem to run from dummy half; why not? Tommy could provide that option from 9.

The half-backs don't set the platform, the forwards do. For all the toughness we supposedly show in defence, for me, the forwards just don't work hard enough when in possession of the ball. When we're on the oppo line there are rarely any dummy runners asking questions. It's way too easy for the oppo defence to read what's happening and shut Williams et al down. I also don't think having two hookers with similar skill sets is ideal. There's just no variation to our play from dummy half.

I genuinely forgot about Shorrocks, I thought he was brilliant in the games last year. I would quite happily have Williams/Shorrocks, Williams,Woods for next year and spend some cap space building a go-forward, mobile, attacking unit around them...SOL, Farrell, Bateman, Wells, Tautai, Sutton + one or two quality additions should be more than capable...

With Dom & Escare fully fit next year, we are spoilt for choice in the back-line. It really is all about keeping them fit and giving them enough time to all bond/gel together.

I for one am scared to death come Feb we will start well with a great looking side, but come early March 4-5 will be crocked and we will be in exactly the same position again, patching up and playing with a different side each week.

This. Especially our "props".

As a collective our props seems to have regressed at an alarming rate this season, Earlier this season only Tautai looked like he could break the line, win a collision and get back on his feet for a quick play the ball. However since his new contract he seems to have gone back into his comfort zone. Clubb carried the rest of the front row on Thursday win only one kidney. FNP and Sutton seem to be having a competition to see who can drop the ball the most.

We need two big 6 foot 3 poophouse props for next season before we look at anything else.

NO PROPS, NO POTS.

When was the last time we had an absolute barnstorming prop forward who made hard yards, broke a line and made the defence work hard to bring him down?

I'm struggling to be honest! Certainly none I can think of under IL.

Was Paleaaesina not an IL signing? Or was that before he took over?

Anyway, it's not been for the want of trying. I think IL would've hoped for better from the likes of Lauaki and FPN, and Scott Taylor would've been that very prop you describe if he hadn't got "homesick".