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| Quote ="Gary High"The Aussies also have a group of players that play together for 3 very intense games in the Origin series. Im not sure of the make up but I bet the Roo's are predominantley Queenslanders ?'"
The pivots are all queenslanders.
We need to be patient with the Exiles concept but also make big and some will say harsh changes to the league set up.
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| You can't blame Tomkins and you also can't blame Sinfield. I was hearing people saying after the game that the forwards matched the Aussies and the backs were the problem. What game were they watching? The Aussie pack was miles better than ours in every way. The were stronger, quicker, more skilful, they played the ball quicker, they dominated our forwards in the tackle almost every time.
Their pack ran ours ragged and there's little that the halves or the outside backs could have done to influence the game.
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| Quote ="Captain13"The Scoreline flattered Australia for sure'"
I think not. I think the scoreline flattered England. Had it not been for Agent Smith on the video replay Australia would have been out of sight by halftime.
England were crap last night. They have gone backwards. I don't really care how well they did against NZ. We have beaten NZ many times over here and tbf NZ didn't look like they wanted to be here at any time during the comp. They also left half their team at home.
Our test is always against the Aussies in a final. We were better in 2009. We have gone backwards since then under McNamara. No surprise there IMO. Bradford did too.
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| Quote ="Captain13"
What is worthwhile mentioning is that England players werent getting in hard or bullying the way Australia were, too soft!
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Correct!
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| Quote ="Cherry.Pie"You can't blame Tomkins and you also can't blame Sinfield. I was hearing people saying after the game that the forwards matched the Aussies and the backs were the problem. What game were they watching? The Aussie pack was miles better than ours in every way. The were stronger, quicker, more skilful, they played the ball quicker, they dominated our forwards in the tackle almost every time.
Their pack ran ours ragged and there's little that the halves or the outside backs could have done to influence the game.'"
Spot on this. I don't think even Brough or Briers (IMO the best field kickers in the game) would have kicked well under that sort of pressure.
Similarly, most fullbacks would have been at least a little nervy if given so little protection from their team-mates.
Nor do I think Thurston and Lockyer (great players though they are) would have looked so impressive if the England forwards had dominated in the way the Aussies did.
The "who's to blame" mentality is typical of the small-minded parochial and blinkered attitude of many RL fans, and just gets in the way of any sensible analysis of the game.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"
100% for effort but we're not clever/crafty enough and that starts from 6, 7 and 9.'"
Disagree, It starts from 8 & 10-13 allowing 6,7 and 9 the time and space to get on the front foot and express their cleverness/craft.
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| I think the difference was out kicking game and PTB speed. The first part of the 2nd half we was looking good, untill the last 20 minute syndrome kicked in as per usual.
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| one thing that could be said of the utilisation of sam is that when the ball was sent back on the inside instead of out to sam, he would often act as a foil which the aussies followed, enabling the likes of wilkin and jjb, who would often receive the ball, to make a little more ground. intentional or not, now people are more and more aware of sams strike power maybe this is a tactic that needs to be adopted or at least something to be aware of.
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| Quote ="Chief Stinkwort"Disagree, It starts from 8 & 10-13 allowing 6,7 and 9 the time and space to get on the front foot and express their cleverness/craft.'"
No, 6, 7 and 9 (in particular) handle the ball more than the other players. If their passing is not crisp and accurate enough then those player you mention can't get the momentum.
Sadly in our game, they are at premium because we've become obsessed with quick play the balls and scoots from dummy half. The craft has been removed.
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| They all tried their best, they all gave their all. I wouldn't criticise any player, or the coaching staff or the RFL. The Aussies are just too good for us. Thaiday and Gallen were outstanding, Smith was superb and then as back up they had Thurston, Inglis, Lockyer etc. It was too much. If we played them every week for 6 months, I'd be surprised if we even won 5 games.
The plus points for me from the 4 nations is that we did install some sort of competition into the tournament and I for one thoroughly enjoyed it even though the result went against us.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I was at the game, and agree in many ways with what dubairl said. It's probably the way he put it that was wrong.
6,7 and 9 are the game controllers, and sadly neither of our three did that last night. They didn't have particularly poor games and nobody can deny their effort. How many times have we tried a loose forward at stand off (Farrell, Sculthorpe, Sinfield). Our kicking game was abysmal.
Everytime Sam caught (or attempted to catch) the ball he had two Aussies contesting the ball or a line of Aussies waiting for for him to return it. When it was the other way round the Ausies had a free catch, under no pressure whatsoever.
Some of our decision making was terrible. Hall's pass in his own 20, Graham the same, JJB the same, all little things but plays that were unnecessary and invite pressure.
Ellis dropped the ball and then misses his next tackle (Aussie score)
Fourth try (I think) Carvell and another English forward get left on the floor at the ptb. The Aussies moved the ball to their right and immediately to where one of those should have been defending, they hadn't got up and left a huge hole in the defence.
100% for effort but we're not clever/crafty enough and that starts from 6, 7 and 9.'"
+1. Class players who play at 6,7 and 9 every week at the highest level. Until we start producing quality players in these key positons we'll always be behind them.
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| One good thing from last night , parked right across from the ground car park B, didn't leave early ( no Wigan walk here ) Saints fans note! stroll back after final whistle, from getting in the car less than 5 mins and on the M621, well done Leeds police, they had blocked the road to allow traffic to leave, please note Wigan police !
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"No, 6, 7 and 9 (in particular) handle the ball more than the other players. If their passing is not crisp and accurate enough then those player you mention can't get the momentum.'"
And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.
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| Quote ="Rogues Gallery"No, 6, 7 and 9 (in particular) handle the ball more than the other players. If their passing is not crisp and accurate enough then those player you mention can't get the momentum.
.'"
True to a degree, but Thurston in particular and Lockyer were afforded the space to express themselves. Sinfield and Chase weren't. This is in part due to the Aussies domination in the forwards (in defence as well as attack). The kicking game was poor, partly because of lack of field position and largely because of kick pressure.
Just as 6,7 and 9 need to lead the forwards around the park, so the forwards need to 'lay the platform' (not my term but one that is frequently used by top players and coaches alike)
I'm not arguing that our 6,7 and 9 are as good as the Aussies. That would be simply ludicrous, but the inability of the rest of the team to compete effectively did have some influence.
I think the reason your post bugged me is that earlier you blamed Sinfield, Chase and Roby for being average and Hall, Ellis, JJB , Graham and Carvell for their errors. Only Tomkins was excused for his mistakes on account of the pressure he was under.
Unless you recognise that the rest of the team, and particularly the playmakers were also under much more pressure than they are used to, your analysis will remain tainted by accusations of club bias.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
Thanks for that I needed a laugh..you don't watch sam much do you. (who would you pick at FB?)
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
Oooo watch it! making a strong post with solid points could see this thread shut down.
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| Quote ="sgtwilko"Oooo watch it! making a strong post with solid points could see this thread shut down.'"
Not at all, however, derailing it with childish comments like yours could see it shut down. If you have a problem with the way the site is run you know where you can go.
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| Quote ="Wigan28/Leeds18 Andy"Not at all, however, derailing it with childish comments like yours could see it shut down. If you have a problem with the way the site is run you know where you can go.
'"
You people really should learn to lighten up a little.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
A bit of assistance from his teammates wouldnt have gone a miss. One of the few effective kicks we put up early on Reed was chasing and was edged out by Thurston so Boyd could catch the ball. The kicks Tomkins flapped at there were 3 or 4 aussies within a few feet of him with no England players anywhere near.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
while i would like to say sam is solid under the high ball, i dont think i could and believe it myself. as you say, the key point is under pressure, which he does not seem to deal well with. in regards to his line defence however, i would ask why you think it is questionable
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
Saintsfan you really are a silly boy/girl. Anything to have a go at the hated enemy, regardless of the right or wrong of it. You can sit smug tonight with your can of the old purple, knowing you are right and that you've pointed it out. So what, England lost but the man you hate most made a mistake. Sam had, by yours and Stevos standards a poor game. Well done. By the way, as part of the pre match entertainment in the next Wigan-Saints game, they are having a catch the high ball comp, all for charity. Pat Richards is going to kick a ball as high as he can, Jeff Lima, LMS, and Sean O'Loughlin will be about 2 foot from the fan who's volunteered to catch it, running at full speed. Let's see if you'll volunteer. Doubt you could even catch a cold.
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| Quote ="Chief Stinkwort"You people really should learn to lighten up a little.'"
We're incredibly enlightened on here, which is why so many people from other teams (such as yourself) want to post. Unfortunately with that traffic comes numbnuts
who simply want to derail threads just when a decent debate was about to break out.
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| Quote ="SaintsFan"And if the fullback can't catch, they don't even get the chance to handle the ball.
Sam Tomkins looked the same this year against the Aussies when under pressure as he did last year against the Aussies when under pressure. His abilities under the high ball are questionable when under pressure (which he will be at international level if the opposition is worth its salt) and his line defence is poor. While I accept that the fullback has become more of an attacking threat in the modern game, that doesn't mean that a fullback shouldn't still be at the very least a good defender. And he should definitely be able to cope with a high ball under pressure if he wants to play on the international stage. That's his job.'"
Tomkins is a very good player and may become great and I will forgive any player who has a bad game now and then. His problem is that he will have more and more bad games at full back as opponents realise that if you put him under pressure by making him field high kicks, grubbers and making tackles, he simply cannot be as effective in attack from full back (see CC Semi Final where he spent time turning round to collect kicks, knocking them dead for half a dozen drop outs, St Helens using three or four players to tackle him). He is being given an almost impossible task as all expect him to be brilliant defensively and then score eighty metre tries.
Play him at six, for both club and country, which will mean even if he does miss the odd tackle, there should be a full back behind him. More importantly, he won't be getting gang tackled and therefore knackered when in international games where the opposition is often of better standard than the lower super league clubs against whom his defensive requirements have been less frequently tested. For country at least, it'll mean Widdop will get more game time (which he deserves) and no Sinfield (or Chase for that matter)....at all....anywhere.....
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| Quote ="wertyuio"
Play him at six, for both club and country'"
i imagine that is the idea if he stays in this sport for as long as hoped, but just look at lockyer. he didnt move to the halves until he was 27 and established as a state of origin and international fullback.
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| Quote ="Wigan28/Leeds18 Andy"We're incredibly enlightened on here, which is why so many people from other teams (such as yourself) want to post. Unfortunately with that traffic comes numbnuts
who simply want to derail threads just when a decent debate was about to break out.'"
Just like our own board where you have been a regular for time, where there is massive traffic, where the gloating and laughing from many was at a peak last season. But as I've said before he who laughs last laughs longest.
Back on topic and back on point. People bagging individuals for the defeat is BS. As I said before it's foolish. Tomkin fluffed a few bombs in the series sinfield through a few crap passes and kicks(saying that i recon he touched the ball more than any English player). Basically we had our best team out there from who was fit. You can argue the toss others should have played. The reasons we lost in my opinion is that the Aussies broke us open at will and only a bit of luck in England's favour stopped it been a blow out before half time.
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