I suspect most players from all teams would have been given a similar reaction. Even a player with an outstanding reputation wouldn't have been excused for this no matter which team they played for - and Flower has been involved in a few bad incidents previously. Other players from other teams with unsavoury reputations would have been given similar treatment - Ryan Bailey comes to mind. Even someone like Kevin Sinfield who has a good record and reputation wasn't seen in a good light when he was sent off this season.

I don't think every team has the same reputation as Wigan either - so maybe you're partly right in that respect, the reaction might have been different had it not been Wigan. You have to take the rough with the smooth in that respect. You've had some success with the style adopted, but you have to be able to take criticism too.

Since Michael Maguire coached Wigan - the Wigan team has played close to the wire and sometimes beyond it! It leaves a bad taste in mouth of other teams when a style is adopted that is aggressive to the point of being questionable and distasteful to some. Shaun Wane has taken this style further with the introduction of a local Wigan-bred mentality in your head coach and has taken that aggressiveness further. His use of language in the build up to matches (particularly against Saints) is over the top in my opinion and not very professional. This obviously riles other sets of supporters and coaching/management teams who will therefore take more pleasure in seeing Wigan lose in such circumstances.

Rant over.

Wow

Flower let himself, the club and the fans down tonight. That will haunt him for a good while longer than the ban imo.

Unacceptable actions.

How much Wane had to play in winding him up pre match only he will know but i suspect he feels partly responsible.

In all fairness to Dave, I think the stall was set out pretty much from the first tackle. It was a tactic advocated by many Saints fans over on their board too, albeit suggesting McIllorum as the target. Fair play to Saints if it was a tactic. It worked. More fool Flower for being stupid enough to fall for it.

If Hohaia was a 17 stone prop and not a halfback he would've broken Flower's jaw.

I wonder if Nathan Brown instructed his team to do something like that.

Have you got an image of the first part of the incident, where Flower has a go at Hohaia following the kick up? Just so we get all the facts straight... I don't excuse Hohaia for this, stupid reaction but there was something to react to and it was started by Flower.

Yeah, how dare they put in a hard, fair tackle straight from kick off. Disgusting tactics that, by Saints and their coach.

How about a follow on of the punch on the floor? a still photo does not tell a story and would not be used in a defence of any incident

Can we have a bit of perspective? For Hoahia to run over and smash Flower with his forearm we should be thinking Flower must've done something pretty bad, oh wait a bit of a coming together and the bigger guy chucks him to the floor. The first punch Hoahia pretty much got what was coming to him based on years of examples of retaliation in scuffles like these. Second punch out of order, which I've not seen ANY wigan fan condone yet in the last five hours!

Ben Flower did a very stupid, very bad thing tonight. It is likely that having a head made entirely out of muscle contributed to this. It is also entirely possible that, on a rugby field at least, he's not a very nice man. He plays in the front row.

So after his inevitable ban, if you want to throw him out of your club, can we have him at Leeds please? I'm sure any fan (especially those of us who remember the 80s and early 90s fondly) would like him at their club.

Which is not to condone what he did, or to say I don't think he should cop a big ban and/or take the blame for a grand final loss.

I'm not debating how bad the first contact was, I'm saying there was something there, (deliberate and unnecessary contact), for Hohaia to react too. I'm not saying he should have reacted either, it was an over the top reaction as I have said above but I wouldn't say him being knocked out was something he had coming to him.

One thing I will say that's crept into saints game recently is this taking people out on kicks. It's there in glorious technicolor over the play off series, Jordan Turner being the main instigator. The Hoahia initial contact is minimal with Flower, certainly nothing to warrant a flying forearm smash but that seems to be glossed over. He didn't connect flush or Flower just has a better chin a la Pettybourne taking one flush from Paul Wood and carrying on. My point was anyone who has played the game at any level will understand that you get smacked in the face you're likely to see someone chuck something back regardless of their past record. Flower's not shown in my experience that he is a head case but for that second punch moment he was.

If you're just here to troll, count me out. On the, admittedly slim, chance you're here to chat rugby I'll explain what I meant. Please excuse any errors as I'm commenting from being at the match and haven't had the benefit of replays so I accept I could be wrong on some observations. That said: First tackle went in and was very aggressive and looked like shoulder first from where I was sitting. 2nd tackle was quite rightly a penalty. Wigan kick to touch. Within a couple tackles of the restart Hohaia puts the elbows into Flowers face. I make that 2 or 3 borderline or illegal plays in the very first set. Now, I can't say for certain that it was a Saints tactic to 'get at' what Brown knew would be a very pumped up Wigan side but, if not, it was a fair impression of it. BTW, I'm not complaining. As I said earlier, [uIF[/u it was a tactic fair play to Saints. It was a good one. The proof of the pudding will be residing in the trophy cabinet next season.

That Masoe tackle on tv doesn't do it justice to how bad it was from the camera angle! Sat right in front of it he nearly decapitated Gelling.

Ah the Wigan thugs coming out with excuses.

Rubbish, it was not a coming together.

Flower fore arm smashes Lance from behind. He does not shove him out the way.

Lance gets up and does the same. But front on.

Flower decks him, then kneels over him and does it again.

So a red card for both. However it's described neither come out in glory do they?!

Personally I would have said 2 yellows and one red.

Others say 2 penalties and a red.

Point being it's the OTT bit on the floor that got him to be the first player in GF history to be sent off.

His punishment is Wigan going from double winners to winning nothing.

The rest is academic as it will be a new year.

And the fact no one can agree on what it should've been shows a glaring problem with the rules in the game.

No no. The vast majority are very clear on what it should of been, just a few trying to defend the indefensible. Two sets of handbags and a shocker. If Hohaia should of been sin binned for that (which he shouldn't) Bateman should of been sin binned for his efforts vs Soliola at the end of the game (but he shouldn't and wasn't)

As I recall from the Magic weekend a few years back, a scuffle got 2 players yellow. Saints and Wigan. And one Wigan red for hitting someone in a similar position unable to defend themselves.

That would seem to make sense. But he can't sin bin Flower for the initial attack and then red card him.
Not sure you can sin bin a player out cold. Or it would be a first if you can.

Either way it got Lance removed from the pitch for the entire game.

If Flower (very inappropriate surname) hadn't have punched Hohaia twice, he MIGHT not have been sent off. But please don't defend him. It was thuggery by the average prop.
Sin bin for Hohaia admittedly, though I guess the actions by Flower, meant he got sent off anyway, though Saints still had 13 players.
Ben Flower should be SACKED after tonight.

Looks like more than handbags from that still, although I understand I'd need to see the full video to be certain. Can't really see any justification for elbowing someone in the face though to be honest no matter what the severity. As for the Flower punch; straight red, no question.

No argument from me. If Flower stays on we win at a canter IMO. Biggest brain fart I've ever seen watching the game and we paid the ultimate price. Last words, credit to the remaining 16 who gave Saints plenty to contend with.