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| Quote ="Father Ted"I don't think IL has lied or misled us at all.
We all know Dean Bell and another Exec from the NZW were over here earlier in the year. I'm pretty sure they said they had a "shopping list" of players in whom they were interested. Sam was top of their list, the remainder probably weren't wanted if they got their top man.
Sam or his agent couldn't approach the NZW people, NZW couldn't approach Sam without the club's permission. Maybe, I don't know, NZW approached Sam/Agent without the club's permission. An unofficial approach or tapping up!
If, after an unofficial conversation, Sam's head was turned by the prospect of the NRL + Salary and then he told IL he wanted to go and where to and didn't want to play for the club from 2014 on, what could IL do about it?
Two choices, let him go and get the best possible deal he can or, tell Sam he's going nowhere and has to play for Wigan. Nothing like having your most expensive player totally turned off, not wanting to play for you and on your books.
IMO IL had no choice but to get the best possible deal, which he may have, and sign the best replacement available which he appears to have done.
Not ideal, it's pretty awful really but this is a RL Sport problem. We now can't keep our best players.
IL is getting slated for calling Bowen a "marquee" player. That description, I don't think, is meant for us Wigan fans at all. It's meant for the knuckledraggers and deadbeats who've voted down a salary cap exemption for each club's "marquee" player. They are the ones who are prepared to see our presence in the Captial disappear and open Catalans to the possibilty of relegation.
We used to talk about a vision for expansion and a strategy to acheive it.
Now they are going headlong into shrinkage and have voted for the strategy to acheive it.
[uAll in all, a bloody awful day day for British Rugby League[/u.'"
Agree with your sentiments .... the trouble is I cannot remember my enthusiasm for RL being so low.
There's little incentive to buy a season ticket as it is today with the league becoming nothing short of a farce but this continual talent drain has to impact on future attendances and the overall profile of the game in the country.
Speaking to one of the clubs higher profile sponsors the other day he said he was not renewing his sponsorship next season ... as far as he's concerned RL is finished in this country. Not necessarily my views but worrying when sponsors have that perception of the sport ! |
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| Quote ="XBrettKennyX"A good summary.
My view of the HONEST answers from IL would be
1. This was never enforceable. I should never have gloated about it, nor classified it as an astute bit of business on my part. I now look like a plonker.
2. I want to maximise the ticket sales for Friday and the chance of seeing the best player in the last decade play in potentially his last game for Wigan will provide that.
3. Well we are investing in long term development, infrastructure, scouts, youth development.... you know, all the stuff that we wouldn't be investing in were it not for these windfalls.......er hang on..........no not that.......er.......'"
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| Quote ="Wigan Peer"So, in view of [ithe fact that Sam has broken the terms of his contract[/i, is it not a good thing that the management have taken decisive action, and sold a player who clearly does not wish to play for the club...'"
Do you know this as a fact? If not watch out or you could end up in court 
What if Sam hasn't broken any contract but NZW approached Mr Lenegan and asked if he would be willing to sell Sam? Who is to say Sam wouldn't of carried on next year and stuck to the contract and it wasn't Mr Lenegan who approached Sam to see if he would be interested in going to NZW and Sam just brought forward his plans a year early? |
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| Quote ="I8pies"Agree with your sentiments .... the trouble is I cannot remember my enthusiasm for RL being so low.
There's little incentive to buy a season ticket as it is today with the league becoming nothing short of a farce but this continual talent drain has to impact on future attendances and the overall profile of the game in the country.
Speaking to one of the clubs higher profile sponsors the other day he said he was not renewing his sponsorship next season ... as far as he's concerned RL is finished in this country. Not necessarily my views but worrying when sponsors have that perception of the sport !'"
Me too. RL is in the worst state since the late 70s/early 80s and this time we have pro RU and the NRL to contend with.
How long before RL goes semi-pro in this country?
All very predictable. Where are the pro SC muppets now?
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| Lets all have a party on Friday to celebrate . Hopefully Grand Final qualification, and the 8 loyal years Pat Richards gave to us . 
Regards , EW   |
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| Quote ="Father Ted"I don't think IL has lied or misled us at all.
We all know Dean Bell and another Exec from the NZW were over here earlier in the year. I'm pretty sure they said they had a "shopping list" of players in whom they were interested. Sam was top of their list, the remainder probably weren't wanted if they got their top man.
Sam or his agent couldn't approach the NZW people, NZW couldn't approach Sam without the club's permission. Maybe, I don't know, NZW approached Sam/Agent without the club's permission. An unofficial approach or tapping up!
If, after an unofficial conversation, Sam's head was turned by the prospect of the NRL + Salary and then he told IL he wanted to go and where to and didn't want to play for the club from 2014 on, what could IL do about it?
Two choices, let him go and get the best possible deal he can or, tell Sam he's going nowhere and has to play for Wigan. Nothing like having your most expensive player totally turned off, not wanting to play for you and on your books.
IMO IL had no choice but to get the best possible deal, which he may have, and sign the best replacement available which he appears to have done.'"
IL misled us over the terms of the contract. There is no way a 3 year restraint of trade (not being able to talk to NRL and RU clubs) was lawful, it was nothing more than a gentleman's agreement. The same goes for the deals for Mossop etc. with us having first refusal of their services when they return, not enforceable by law, simply a gentleman's agreement, that I hope comes to fruition.
IL has been made to look a mug by bigging up a basically worthless contract. |
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| Quote ="Suzy Banyon" The same goes for the deals for Mossop etc. with us having first refusal of their services when they return, not enforceable by law, simply a gentleman's agreement, that I hope comes to fruition.
IL has been made to look a mug by bigging up a basically worthless contract.'"
The Harris / Bradford / Leeds court case shows they are enforceable. |
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| Quote ="Suzy Banyon"IL has been made to look a mug by bigging up a basically worthless contract.'"
I think a world record transfer fee disputes that sentiment.
There's an awful lot of hot air on this one - we had a player, under contract who wanted to leave, and another club paid a significant transfer fee to us in order to sign him. It's not that unusual. |
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I think a world record transfer fee disputes that sentiment.
There's an awful lot of hot air on this one - we had a player, under contract who wanted to leave, and another club paid a significant transfer fee to us in order to sign him. It's not that unusual.'"
I think they've been saving up a lot of that hot air too. It's not like they didn't know this was going to happen. |
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| Quote ="Guerrier"I think a world record transfer fee disputes that sentiment.
There's an awful lot of hot air on this one - we had a player, under contract who wanted to leave, and another club paid a significant transfer fee to us in order to sign him. It's not that unusual.'"
I think the main issue people have with this whole thing is the fact that we were led to believe that we had him for 3 years. That's certainly my gripe with it all anyway. we've got some decent money for him and we've got the best replacement possible. I would hope that the transfer fee will be used to buy a good couple of players, when available, in the next couple of seasons and not be swallowed up by relaying the car park at Orrell or something equally underwhelming. |
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When negotiating any players contract, where a buyout clause is part of the contract, it is usually based on a percentage of the remaining contract eg 75% of salary x remaining years of contract. Even if IL knew ST was going this year, he'll have simply agreed a new contract to reflect the amount of money Wigan see as acceptable for letting ST cancel the contract.
So, give him £300k/yr, for another 3 years, knowing you wont have to actually pay out the £300k from your cap (as he's leaving!), and the new club have to give you c£700k to get him 'released' from the contract. When IL said he was pleased to announce he'd agreed a contract with ST, what he meant was if he goes, I'll at least get enough money to get a replacement.
The only thing that's surprised me is that people on here are surprised!
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| Credit to ST and good luck from a Rhinos fan. He'll do well in the NRL, and look forward to seeing him play
Just hope his final game is a losing one  |
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| Quote ="Sherbert Dip"
Just hope his final game is a losing one
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It will be ... whether it's Friday or a week Saturday, it will be |
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| Quote ="Deano G"Me too. RL is in the worst state since the late 70s/early 80s and this time we have pro RU and the NRL to contend with.
How long before RL goes semi-pro in this country?
All very predictable. Where are the pro SC muppets now?
'"
As we argued years ago, all very "inevitable".
Still we were only saying that as Wigan were not winning anything anymore................ |
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| Quote ="Wigan28/Leeds18 Andy"The Harris / Bradford / Leeds court case shows they are enforceable.'"
They have to come back first.
That will only happen if it suits both parties yet some give the impression it's a done deal and they will be back in Wigan colours in X years.
Maybe that is what they want to believe but its certainly not guaranteed and there is IMO an element of spin from IL when he announces these deals suggesting they will return is a certainty.
I was also under the impression we were only able to hold their registrations for a set period of time. I am sure when the Mossop deal was announced we only got first dibs if he came back after two or three years i.e. immediately after his contract with his Aussie club expires. |
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| Quote ="DaveO"They have to come back first.
That will only happen if it suits both parties yet some give the impression it's a done deal and they will be back in Wigan colours in X years.
Maybe that is what they want to believe but its certainly not guaranteed and there is IMO an element of spin from IL when he announces these deals suggesting they will return is a certainty.
I was also under the impression we were only able to hold their registrations for a set period of time. I am sure when the Mossop deal was announced we only got first dibs if he came back after two or three years i.e. immediately after his contract with his Aussie club expires.'"
so what if he doesn't come back to superleague thats sam tomkins decision not anybody else's and if he does decided to come home and not retire over there he will becoming back to wigan, what more do you expect lenegan to do? |
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| Quote ="Wigan Peer"So, in view of the fact that Sam has broken the terms of his contract, is it not a good thing that the management have taken decisive action, and sold a player who clearly does not wish to play for the club...'"
If Sam had broken the terms of his contract then no its not a good thing as it shows an so called watertight contract is worthless so they should have enforced his contract. That was after all its purpose (to keep him here for a minimum of three years). Once he had spoken to NRL clubs and came to the club with the news he should have been given short shrift and told to get back to training.
Him leaving represents a failure of management not a success because they got a fee.
My view is he won't have broken the terms of his deal but that he will have asked permission to speak to NRL clubs possibly at the behest of his agent. I think this is a reasonable view to take given the words IL used in the press release. I don't think Sam is the kind of person to go behind the clubs back as he seems a genuine bloke off the field and not some sneaky underhand type. If so the problem lies with IL who agreed to the request.
Either way as I said him leaving represents a failure of management. It's that simple. |
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| Quote ="dubairl"so what if he doesn't come back to superleague thats sam tomkins decision not anybody else's and if he does decided to come home and not retire over there he will becoming back to wigan, what more do you expect lenegan to do?'"
Nothing!
I was pointing out he can't force them to return and that it would require them to want to return for Wigan to get first dibs on their services and there is no guarantee that they will.
I happen to think its unlikely they will return so this is really just more PR spin some are happy to swallow as our chairman being brilliant.
The NRL salary cap is set to increase year on year and unless the players get home sick or are failures I don't expect them to be back. They would be mugs to comeback here on vastly lower wages and they aren't mugs. |
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Sam will do very well in the NRL.
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Good luck Sam
And i see DaveO is still whining about him breaking his contract!
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The contract Sam signed will no doubt of been kosher and the clauses that were claimed to be in it were in it imo.
The 3 years of no talking to NRL/union clubs clause cant be enforced if we accept a bid for him before that term is up can it? That's what IL has done imo. Big bid has come in and he accepted it and gave Sam permission to talk to NZW.
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| Quote ="DaveO"Nothing!
I was pointing out he can't force them to return and that it would require them to want to return for Wigan to get first dibs on their services and there is no guarantee that they will.
I happen to think its unlikely they will return so this is really just more PR spin some are happy to swallow as our chairman being brilliant.
The NRL salary cap is set to increase year on year and unless the players get home sick or are failures I don't expect them to be back. They would be mugs to comeback here on vastly lower wages and they aren't mugs.'"
fair enough i don't think thats what Lenegan wants people to believe tho, its a clause to say if he comes back in 3 years he has a contract at a set salary already, and if he doesn't we get first refusal anyway.
As some one who hasn't lived in their hometown for close to 8 years i can tell you, you get homesick no matter how big of a dump the uk is at the moment. |
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Just Id thought Id share my correspondence with the club with all boys and girls..
Owdpop.....
So IL has a few questions to answer....
1. Tomkins signed a 5year deal in Nov 2011 that stopped him SPEAKING to ANY club for 3 years. In Sept 2013 he has SIGNED for NZ Warriors. How and why has the happened??
2. Why have you announced this 4 days before the most important game if the year??
3. What do you propose to do with the reported £1M the club has made in transfer fees this year??
Wigan Warriors....
the first 2 can be answered from todays press conference;
1. Wigan accepted a world record transfer bid from NZ Warriors and gave the club permission to talk to the player.
2. Both deals were finalised last week, so it was right that the fans were informed before Sams last home game.
3. Remains to be seen
Owd Pop.......
1. This then shows the Wigan club to be very weak IMO. To have fans believe back in Nov 2011 that SAMs not going anywhere for at least 3 years and then to let him go after 20 months is taking the proverbials out of the paying fans.
2. So the club has now created the 'Sam is leaving circus' before Fridays game. When all the fans should be concentrating is on backing the side onto victory. I couldn't care less about waving good bye to a player that doesn't honour his commitments to my club.
3. Well it would be nice to know.
Wigan Warriors....
The transfer bid could have come at any time and it was up to the Club whether or not to accept it. Due to the figures suggested, the offer was obviously too good to turn down.
Read the link below for more details on the deal;
www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.a ... 674&type=1
Thanks,
Admin
Owdpop...
I appreciate the replies I really do. The reasons you give for the sale leaves me extremely worried about my club and the sport in the UK. It seems any bid for our players that seem too good will now be accepted. This hardly leaves fans wanting to buy season tickets for next year does it. Why sell your prize asset when we still have a salary cap in place? It's not as if we can just go around splashing the cash is it?? The reason given by IL for the sale gave the perception that Sam was the main driver and he was desperate to leave, whilst your answer suggest otherwise. It's all rather sad for the fans of our once great club.
So IL was the main driving force behind the deal not Sam as he was the first port of call. It remain to be seen what happens with all that lovely money... |
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Just Id thought Id share my correspondence with the club with all boys and girls..
Owdpop.....
So IL has a few questions to answer....
1. Tomkins signed a 5year deal in Nov 2011 that stopped him SPEAKING to ANY club for 3 years. In Sept 2013 he has SIGNED for NZ Warriors. How and why has the happened??
2. Why have you announced this 4 days before the most important game if the year??
3. What do you propose to do with the reported £1M the club has made in transfer fees this year??
Wigan Warriors....
the first 2 can be answered from todays press conference;
1. Wigan accepted a world record transfer bid from NZ Warriors and gave the club permission to talk to the player.
2. Both deals were finalised last week, so it was right that the fans were informed before Sams last home game.
3. Remains to be seen
Owd Pop.......
1. This then shows the Wigan club to be very weak IMO. To have fans believe back in Nov 2011 that SAMs not going anywhere for at least 3 years and then to let him go after 20 months is taking the proverbials out of the paying fans.
2. So the club has now created the 'Sam is leaving circus' before Fridays game. When all the fans should be concentrating is on backing the side onto victory. I couldn't care less about waving good bye to a player that doesn't honour his commitments to my club.
3. Well it would be nice to know.
Wigan Warriors....
The transfer bid could have come at any time and it was up to the Club whether or not to accept it. Due to the figures suggested, the offer was obviously too good to turn down.
Read the link below for more details on the deal;
www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.a ... 674&type=1
Thanks,
Admin
Owdpop...
I appreciate the replies I really do. The reasons you give for the sale leaves me extremely worried about my club and the sport in the UK. It seems any bid for our players that seem too good will now be accepted. This hardly leaves fans wanting to buy season tickets for next year does it. Why sell your prize asset when we still have a salary cap in place? It's not as if we can just go around splashing the cash is it?? The reason given by IL for the sale gave the perception that Sam was the main driver and he was desperate to leave, whilst your answer suggest otherwise. It's all rather sad for the fans of our once great club.
So IL was the main driving force behind the deal not Sam as he was the first port of call. It remain to be seen what happens with all that lovely money... | |
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| Quote ="Wandering Warrior"The 3 years of no talking to NRL/union clubs clause cant be enforced if we accept a bid for him before that term is up can it? That's what IL has done imo. Big bid has come in and he accepted it and gave Sam permission to talk to NZW.'"
100% this |
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Quote ="Owdpopularsider"Just Id thought Id share my correspondence with the club with all boys and girls..
Owdpop.....
So IL has a few questions to answer....
1. Tomkins signed a 5year deal in Nov 2011 that stopped him SPEAKING to ANY club for 3 years. In Sept 2013 he has SIGNED for NZ Warriors. How and why has the happened??
2. Why have you announced this 4 days before the most important game if the year??
3. What do you propose to do with the reported £1M the club has made in transfer fees this year??
Wigan Warriors....
the first 2 can be answered from todays press conference;
1. Wigan accepted a world record transfer bid from NZ Warriors and gave the club permission to talk to the player.
2. Both deals were finalised last week, so it was right that the fans were informed before Sams last home game.
3. Remains to be seen
Owd Pop.......
1. This then shows the Wigan club to be very weak IMO. To have fans believe back in Nov 2011 that SAMs not going anywhere for at least 3 years and then to let him go after 20 months is taking the proverbials out of the paying fans.
2. So the club has now created the 'Sam is leaving circus' before Fridays game. When all the fans should be concentrating is on backing the side onto victory. I couldn't care less about waving good bye to a player that doesn't honour his commitments to my club.
3. Well it would be nice to know.
Wigan Warriors....
The transfer bid could have come at any time and it was up to the Club whether or not to accept it. Due to the figures suggested, the offer was obviously too good to turn down.
Read the link below for more details on the deal;
www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.a ... 674&type=1
Thanks,
Admin
Owdpop...
I appreciate the replies I really do. The reasons you give for the sale leaves me extremely worried about my club and the sport in the UK. It seems any bid for our players that seem too good will now be accepted. This hardly leaves fans wanting to buy season tickets for next year does it. Why sell your prize asset when we still have a salary cap in place? It's not as if we can just go around splashing the cash is it?? The reason given by IL for the sale gave the perception that Sam was the main driver and he was desperate to leave, whilst your answer suggest otherwise. It's all rather sad for the fans of our once great club.
So IL was the main driving force behind the deal not Sam as he was the first port of call. It remain to be seen what happens with all that lovely money...'"
well from all the interviews sam has done its not mentioned he was pushed out at all completely the opposite and it seemed it was all ways on he's agenda to leave this year or the next. Shaun Wane said he tried to connivence sam to stays but sam wanted to leave.
I guess the club accepted that sam wouldn't stay with us for the rest of he's carer and they didn't want to stand in the way if they got appropriately compensated (which they have). Just out of curiosity why do you think the club would tell you its business plans for the following years? |
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Quote ="Owdpopularsider"Just Id thought Id share my correspondence with the club with all boys and girls..
Owdpop.....
So IL has a few questions to answer....
1. Tomkins signed a 5year deal in Nov 2011 that stopped him SPEAKING to ANY club for 3 years. In Sept 2013 he has SIGNED for NZ Warriors. How and why has the happened??
2. Why have you announced this 4 days before the most important game if the year??
3. What do you propose to do with the reported £1M the club has made in transfer fees this year??
Wigan Warriors....
the first 2 can be answered from todays press conference;
1. Wigan accepted a world record transfer bid from NZ Warriors and gave the club permission to talk to the player.
2. Both deals were finalised last week, so it was right that the fans were informed before Sams last home game.
3. Remains to be seen
Owd Pop.......
1. This then shows the Wigan club to be very weak IMO. To have fans believe back in Nov 2011 that SAMs not going anywhere for at least 3 years and then to let him go after 20 months is taking the proverbials out of the paying fans.
2. So the club has now created the 'Sam is leaving circus' before Fridays game. When all the fans should be concentrating is on backing the side onto victory. I couldn't care less about waving good bye to a player that doesn't honour his commitments to my club.
3. Well it would be nice to know.
Wigan Warriors....
The transfer bid could have come at any time and it was up to the Club whether or not to accept it. Due to the figures suggested, the offer was obviously too good to turn down.
Read the link below for more details on the deal;
www.wiganwarriors.com/WContent.a ... 674&type=1
Thanks,
Admin
Owdpop...
I appreciate the replies I really do. The reasons you give for the sale leaves me extremely worried about my club and the sport in the UK. It seems any bid for our players that seem too good will now be accepted. This hardly leaves fans wanting to buy season tickets for next year does it. Why sell your prize asset when we still have a salary cap in place? It's not as if we can just go around splashing the cash is it?? The reason given by IL for the sale gave the perception that Sam was the main driver and he was desperate to leave, whilst your answer suggest otherwise. It's all rather sad for the fans of our once great club.
So IL was the main driving force behind the deal not Sam as he was the first port of call. It remain to be seen what happens with all that lovely money...'"
well from all the interviews sam has done its not mentioned he was pushed out at all completely the opposite and it seemed it was all ways on he's agenda to leave this year or the next. Shaun Wane said he tried to connivence sam to stays but sam wanted to leave.
I guess the club accepted that sam wouldn't stay with us for the rest of he's carer and they didn't want to stand in the way if they got appropriately compensated (which they have). Just out of curiosity why do you think the club would tell you its business plans for the following years? | |
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