So who would have bought Wigan?
Why didn't they?
Did they want it on the cheap?
Would they have put more money in than IL?

IL has the right to put HIS money where he wants. The % is irrelevant.

Is the club in a better position now than when he came?

I am glad you agree that the competition is rubbish. By doing so ask yourself what is the achievement, what is it worth? You know the answer, the number of sponsors banging on the day clamouring to sponsor events for millions know the answer.

If owners like the DR come along and want to invest vast sums (provided the accept liability themselves) then IL becomes part of the problem not the solution by blocking investment and clubs getting better and SL becoming a better competition.

If an owner emerged who wanted to invest a few million in London then I see nothing wrong with London having no salary cap. Again providing that investor accepts liability.

What is your solution, to keep dothing your cap whilst SL declines.

You like avoiding questions Rogues particularly when they relate to your 'better' IL

Other investors were mentioned at the time. Do you think Wigan would have remained unsold if IL had not existed? We both no the answer is NO Everybody wanted Wigan on the cheap including IL, IL has not put any money into Wigan RLFC, his initial purchase investment will be recovered as/when he sells and AT a profit.

You Rogues, I, everybody here commits more to Wigan RLFC as a % of our wealth than IL has ever done, whatsmore in terms of other owners IL compares poorly against Hughes at London, Thomas at Leigh/Wigan/Saints, Fulton at Cas

Why should IL try to stop people like the DR provided they accept personal liability from building a RL club in Manchester. Do Salford fans not deserve some success? or are we happy to say we are now set up, screw you Dr, we have a League hotbed to feed from, screw you London.

IL is not a philanthropist. Rich people buy 'toys' be it a super car, a holiday retreat, a sports club. Do you doth your cap Rogues when you see IL? before visiting the toilet

P.S Rogues. Runcorn were profitable. Austerity produces profits in a bank but nothing else.

Such a condescending attitude, i don't bow to anybody..... Do you really believe there are stacks of Dr's out there willing to throw money at rugby League.... Its not money coming into RL that would be the problem, its the clubs who will sit and moan and do nothing, they have been the cause of the current situation. You are directing your ire at the wrong people.

IF IL sells Wigan at a profit, good luck to him. He can only do that if Wigan are successful, which I am sure we all want to see (or there is some mug who is starry eyed)

Put the season tickets up and see what happens, the moaners on here will have a field day.

I don't have a problem with IL selling players at a profit, providing that money is invested wisely back into the club, that's business.

The better players in the U16 side are NOT from the Wigan area, so how do we fund the scouting/recruitment of these juniors. Do we honestly believe we wave the we are Wigan flag in their faces?

Ryan Hampshire is the outstanding talent in the U19's, from Wakefield, Rob Lever is from St. Helens. Bradley Mais is from Wales etc etc. This is where the money was and should be invested.

I really cant believe the attitude of some who want things to stay as they are. Players are now getting paid far less in real terms than 10 years ago and the way that some people are talking they would be quite happy for the salary cap to stay at its current level forever with young players being paid peanuts and being treated as cannon fodder. Others are talking like average players like Tuson dont deserve more in pay because it wont make them a better player and that only star players or 1 marquee player deserves a raise. Does the same apply to them in their jobs? Have they had pay cuts for 10 years in a row? I would actually welcome players going out on strike to get the salary cap lifted or abolished. If we wait until the bottom clubs catch up then the salary cap will never be increased because we have had 10 years and if anything they are now further away.

People talk about attracting sponsors and corporates but a race to the bottom certainly wont do that. The big sponsors and companies want top be associated with a quality product, paying players peanuts, having no stars and having teams made up of kids certainly wont do this. If Koukash wants to plough millions into Rugby League then good on him, the game certainly needs the money and I am sure a few clubs would welcome the transfer fees that may come their way. If Moran wishes to do the same by some sort of sponsorship deal then fair play to him. Who knows this may encourage over benefactors too to come into the game. The game has to raise across the board in just about everything that it does and it certainly isnt going to do this with the salary cap in place as it is now.

In Super League today to cut costs we dont have a proper reserve competition and squads are way too small because of the salary cap meaning that after a few injuries kids are played, many of which are no where near ready, which constantly means a huge reduction in playing standards and intensity. This is only going to get worse with experienced players going to the NRL and being replaced by even more youngsters who in general wont be as good and may not even be ready. Some people are living in a fantasy world where we are just competing with fellow Super League clubs when we are not at all, we are competing with RU and the NRL.

Really? Jesus Christ the average Wigan fan must be seriously skint then.

Going off Wigan's 2011 accounts the club owed its parent company (Lenegan Holdings or something like that) about £1.5m ie the amount of Lenegan's wealth he has put into the club under that one heading let alone the money he paid to Whelan and in paying off Whelan's loans to the club. Now Lenegan is no Abramovich and that represents a serious amount of his total wealth.


I'm sure many know I'm no big fan of Lenegan and certain decisions he actively supported but quite honestly some of the rubbish you are spouting on here is unbelievable. You don't have a clue how lucky you are to have Lenegan in charge of your club.


ps stop can people please stop including Moran in the "old boys club"

pps can we see how much Koukash spends before buying into his self-publicity.

I think that is pretty astute. Wigan can exist at the top end of the SL despite losses to the NRL and despite the fact wages have dropped in real terms for years and we just can't compete with for the best players. Some will be happy with this if we win a CC or GF ignoring being the best in a poor competition is not indicative of a healthy sport.

As I have said IL has done a lot right here. Building up the Orrell facility and plenty of other things such as having the vision to give Madge the coaching job. However when it comes to wider issues of the sport in general he is falling short IMO and does not seem progressive. I don't expect him to fund an increased saalry cap out of his own pocket but I do expect him to work to find funds to increase it, not asking what why would he want to pay more money. The answer to that is obvious.

Nobody's asking for it to stay the same. What we all want is more investment from the RFL. The game cannot sustain 14 teams.
They screwed up with the Stobart deal, we have no major sponsor.

Fylde_Warrior complains about doffing the cap but then wants to Dr K to have a free hand to spend as much as he wants. Salford fans will be on bended knee.

Just out of interest, what is Lenegan's total wealth?

Based on the quotes in the article IL falls into the first category.

Absolutely correct. I'm not sure if it's hilarious, worrying or sad.

Probably a combination of all 3.

Some people simply cannot understand that RL has been spoon fed an artificial competitive advantage for the vast majority of it's entire life. Those days are now gone.

As a recent RL convert, I think the salary cap is working for RL as a whole but it does have some problems.
Without the cap, the best players would be concentrated into 2 maybe 4 clubs and it would be like the Scottish Premier League (pointless as a competition lets turn up for the playoffs).
Clubs would be living on the edge of financial ruin to compete and we would see more going bust. That can't be good for the game. IMO this would lead to greater player drain, as they would have to leave to achieve their rugby ambitions.
While I Dont like the comments IL made financially it makes sense. IMO IL is doing a good job for wigan within the current limits and constraints.
RL is a great product which IMO is being mismanaged by RFL, to increase the salary cap we need to get more money into the game as a whole not individual clubs.

The pro / anti IL debate is a distraction. Few people with maybe one exception are 100% anti-IL. Posts going off on a tangent accusing people of disagreeing with IL on the issue being discussed for all sorts of odd reasons just don't deal with the issue at all.

Correct me if I am wrong but I seem to recall you have been a big supporter of the salary cap in the past? If so does that mean you agree with IL's comments? I'd be far more interested to hear your views on that than a have a lecture on how lucky we are to have him.

Not sure but from memory he sold his business interest and netted around £20m for his share of the business (although I have no idea whether the original management buy-out he lead was debt funded and there was outstanding debt to pay off or how much, if any, capital gains tax he'd pay on this). I'd imagine you're probably looking at somewhere around the £25m'ish area but pure guesswork at the end of the day (although slightly educated guesswork).

Lenegan is a clever guy. He runs Wigan to its limit of profitability and he knows to make the life of him and the club easier he needs to keep the RFL on side. If he makes them think he is in support of keeping it where it is then they may be more inclined to help if we require it. Also they may be more inclined to do a vote expecting him to support stagnation but he may in fact vote the other way. Hes a clever guy and I wouldnt bet that there isnt something to read between the lines here.

People are talking like it is impossible for the salary cap to be lifted because the club invests in other areas and are asking the question would they be happy for ticket prices to increase to pay for an increase in the cap. Well sorry clubs have always invested in these areas so it is hardly anything new and I actually think people have become brainwashed by the whole the game is skint brigade.

Clubs now get more TV money than they ever had before, £1.2 million a year at the last count. In addition season tickets and match day tickets have gone up on a fairly regular basis since the salary cap was introduced. Attendances at most clubs are also up dramatically, more than double in some cases. The game has never really had huge sponsors anyway so I doubt the lack of sponsors today even has an effect compared to times gone by, even say a £700,000 League sponsorship deal is at most £50,000 per club without the RFL even taking a cut. Bearing all this in mind I really do find it hard to believe that the game is as hard up as some claim, and dont forget it is in all of these owners’ interests to claim that it is for obvious reasons. Any clubs that have gone to the wall have done so because of mismanagement as there is no reason for any club to do so if it lives within its means and besides the salary cap hasn’t prevented this anyway.

Looking at the days pre-salary cap, as I said in my initial post there are Wigan players that got paid far more pre salary cap than players today and that is not even taking into account inflation, never mind the players at the start of the salary cap who got far more in real terms. In the 80s and 90s, 16 year olds got thousands, and in some cases 10s of thousands, for signing professionally, big transfer fees were common and we had a proper reserve league. We also had players signing from RU for big money, often funded by sponsors and many paid for themselves by what was put onto the gate, incentives and initiatives like this will never happen with the salary cap as it is. We also had quite a few clubs with superstar players and much better squads than what we have today, just look at some of the players that even clubs like Castleford had in the 90's. Just about all of this has disappeared or fallen victim to cost cutting. Where has all this money gone? Why has the major sources of income risen, such as TV income, ticket prices, attendances but the salary cap hasnt even gone up by inflation? The salary cap in its present form has created a very lazy and complacent league where innovation and investment are discouraged. Decisions regarding the salary cap, play off structure and anything else where the owners have a vested interest need to be taken out of their hands because it certainly isnt doing the game as a whole any good.

So you have no idea Paul re IL's wealth.

Do fans not commit a bigger % of their income.

N.B IL has not spenty any of his personal wealthat Wigan and will make money on his investment when he sells the club.

The salary cap is a terrible policy. It has achieved nothing positive and has had a negative impact upon SL. It disuades potential investors from investing in RL.

See top of page and as previously stated the answer is no for the vast majority.

If the salery cap did not exist Wigan would have won more trophies.

Or gone bust without another Central park to sell...

the investment you talk about, where has IL paid that money from then?

With Warrington's wealth they may have dominated without the salary cap, oh sorry I forgot it's Warrington, forget that.

Why? It didn't work for Leeds who spent money like they were printing it pre-salary cap days in the 80's and 90's. Wigan's success has always been about more than money and those who say it was simply down to money do so to simply discredit the clubs achievements. What does my head in is some of our own fans will make the same argument if it suits the point they are trying to make!