If Pryce doesn't cure AIDS within the next 10 minutes he should be sacked.

Dave, i'm making it about as personal as dissecting what somebody has posted line by line and questioning a poster's knowledge level (which comes across rightly or wrongly as a really sly dig) rather than just having your say. Being called out is when you make statements about something or somebody, and say things like 'I can't actually believe you think he is that good given you profess to be (I believe) a student of the game', that somebody may call your statements and opinion into question. And then you feel that you're being attacked?????



You don't agree with me and a few others, and that's perfectly ok and right. It's an Internet Forum and everybody's opinion is just as right or wrong as mine, and i fully support their right to feel i'm talking balls, just as I reserve the right to feel that they are. Have you considered developing a thicker skin on here?

If I've hurt your feelings then I unreservedly apologise, you just really wound me up by although quoting me, seemingly not having had read what i'd said which was



How does may statement that refers to =#FF00403 totally different factors (metres, players to cover him, and defence), turn into strke rate being the '=#FF0040be all and end all', I NEVER SAID IT WAS, you just seemingly (intentionally or unintentionally) read it that I had - or that's the only conclusion that I can come to given your actual response.

Tell me i'm talking crap and that you don't agree with me as much as you like, i'll fully support your right to do it, just please don't misrepresent what i've said.

peace out

SEB

Apologies for the slight derail of topic.

Back on topic: He's doing a decent job for what was at the start of the season, at least a >3rd choice Winger who had played a handfull of first team games in the past few years. Just as Darrell's done a decent job to. The coaching staff like what he's doing, hence he keeps getting selected, and that'll more than do for me.

I thought I would take a look at the stats to see how Pryce compares to Goulding (You cant really compare him to Roberts or Richards as they have played so many games at full back) :

[uPryce[/u
Appearances 6
Tries 9
Try assists 1
Meters 432
Carries 59
Tackles 21
Offloads 2
Attacking Kicks 1
Runs from dummy half 6
Tackle Busts 5
Marker tackles 2
Clean Breaks 6
Kicks in general play 1
Missed tackles 2
Errors 4
Penalties 0

[uGoulding[/u
12 Appearances
17 Tries
1 Try assists
1112 Meters
151 Carries
37 Tackles
7 Offloads
2 Attacking Kicks
65 Runs from dummy half
21 Tackle Busts
3 Marker tackles
14 Clean Breaks
2 Kicks in general play
3 Missed tackles
9 Errors
1 Penalties

Pryce has played half the Super League games that Goulding has and as a result it is very easy to compare the two players. I think these stats really show how poor Pryce's work rate is, how slow he is in taking the ball up and show that he doesnt use his size effectively. Pryce is considerably poorer in many of the major areas. He makes far less carries, far less runs from dummy half, far less metres, far less tackle busts and less clean breaks. In any other area the differences in favour of either player are negligible.

not a big fan of pryce, but at the same time don't agree if people in the east stand are giving him stick i'm sure he is trying his best, having said that if it was a straight choice between him and goulding it would be goulding for me i think the lad has more potential long term.

Karl has all the physical attributes to be a top International level winger/. Personally i feel he doesnt have the heart to really push onto that next level and i also think he is quite work shy when it comes to doing the dirty work.

Pro-rata your stats by carries..... 0.5 metres less per carry,

Could the number of carries is largely not down to him assuming he's playing how he's been asked to play, evidence suggests you get dropped by MM and SW if you don't, so let's give the benefit of the doubt there?

You also need to adjust them by appearances to:

Carries per appearance, Pryce 9.833 Goulding 12.583

and factor in Left v Right side play patterns

So let's look at Carmont v Gleeson to help figure a weighting factor for the same stat

8.438 v 11.667, hmmmmm do you start to see a pattern here? (there's more work on the right going forwards)

For our centres, the left centre makes 72% of the carries the right one does.
Given the same two wingers, the left winger makes 78% of the carries the right one does.

hmmmmm there really does look to be more work going on carry wise on the right doesn't there? (and by a not dissimilar margin in the centres to)

Adjust the clean breaks by carry and he's making a higher percentage of clean breaks per carry than goulding, and that's without factoring in the play pattern.

Adjust the tackles by appearance, and he's making more tackles than Goulding. Interestingly so is Carmont than Gleeson..

oooow there's actually more defensive work happening on our left hand side (by both winger and centre) ..................................

See that it's not just a case of looking at the headline numbers? And i'm by no means a statistician or RL analyst, something MM has at his disposal, and =#FF0040has still been selecting Karl

If I just posted headline numbers, George looks nowhere near as good as Martin........... and we all know it's nothing like that simple.





A player's worth and performance can only really be assessed by our coaching staff, though i am prepared to entertain that MM maybe wrong across the board in his selection policy (rather than some odd premise that he's just blind over Karl Pryce) - that however is a totally separate debate.

Maybe Pryce and Goulding are not being selected on who is better than whom.
Perhaps they are being picked because MM wants to have a good look at Pryce over quite a few number of games.
MM may have decided that if Pat goes to fb then Pryce comes in on the left.
Should Amos go to 1 then Goulding will come in on the right.
It could perhaps be that either are being selected on where Pat and Amos play and that the coaching staff prefer Pryce left wing and Goulding right.
I just think the way the team have been selected we won't see Goulding play left wing nor Pryce on the right side.
Whether we like it or not I do feel that the selction of either Goulding or Pryce depends on where MM picks Pat and Amos rather than the merits of the two lads.

Just watched the game on the TV for the first time and still have absolutely no idea why Pryce gets criticised in this game.

The cretins in the east stand sat near me must be on crack.. I was doubting my sobriety after their constant moaning, but they've got to be higher than the bloody moon!

So darrell Goulding averages an extra 0.5 metres per carry than Karl Pryce? People still think Pryce makes good metres?

So Karl Pryce cant even match Gouldings meters and he is a LOT bigger, that just sums up what lets him down imo.

Now that seems to me to be a lot more of a valid arguement than many on here..sad that most will ignore it in favour of their own like/dislike and stuff the facts.

Pryce has done ok - not a lot more than that as yet - he certainly hasn't really stood out compared to others (and that surely is a better comparison) like Goulding. But given how long he has spent out with injury at least he deserves the chance. The coaching staff will manage things - and if they think he isn't performing well enough then he will be dropped - and that for me is about as fair as it needs to be.

In the week after a game Madge has one on one talk with every player in the team to discuss their performance.

The conclusion of that is Madge must be happy with Pryces performance in the role he has been given. We all know that if a player does not perform to Maguires requirements they are dropped.

It's as simple as that. Just because we as spectators like/dislike a player means and should mean nothing, it's the coaches responsibility too pick the team HE thinks is best.

As I've said so many times about the likes of Fielden, Roberts and Riddell, the Wigan fans for some reason have to have a scapegoat, and I really can't understand it.

It's nothing new though, it's happened in all the time I have watched Wigan.

I would love to sit in on the one between him and Feka.

you cannot make a correct judgement about the players without looking at the actual carries.

i am sure i could make more meters than certain players per carry if every one of my carries was running the ball back from a kick.

we know with both these players that they have both made a lot of easy yard from the work done inside them. how many times have we seen a winger running countless meters after an overlap, so in effect just running into empty space. thats why im a bit wary of looking at the meters made by a winger. if it was someone like joel, then meters made would be very interesting, because he makes alot of breaks for himself with the lines he runs.

I don't think that one lasts very long.

To join his brother at Saints ?

I'm unsure about pryce, he can score from 10/15 yards out better than goulding (Would goulding have scored vs Saints on Sunday, knocking away foster?) but doesn't return the ball as well.

For me, keep him in the side if he's fit enough. Let him build up his confidence and score some tries. Pryce can be a good asset in the long run, he just needs a bit of form and confidence.

Goulding is a fringe player, yes this season he is on a hotstreak. But last time he got the starting jersey he lost all confidence and was back in the reserves.

Exactly what I meant by my 'should have killed foster' comment. He ran at him 1 on 1 and got injured. I do think he pulled u before contact though so maybe he pulled summat.

I have no problem with Pryce. He is scoring tries which is what we pay him for, and as some have said his defence is quite solid. (Remember the hit on cudjoe anyone?) I think its the usual story of someone doesnt like you so never will no matter what you do.

There is absolutely nothing wrong with his confidence this season so what may have gone on in the past in that regard is no justification for not selecting him over Pryce if that is the debate. In fact it's the opposite. If confidence is a factor in dropping and selecting players Goulding would be in the side as Pryce looks the least confident out of the two of them.

Dave

I think that is a pretty good observation. What would be interesting to see is if Goulding got a wing slot on the right if Pryce made the bench. In theory he offers cover for both wings and centres.

Dave

Pryce would never be put on the bench, nor would any other outside back. We always go with four forwards which is correct as we have more than enough versatility within the starting 13 to slot into the 3/4 line if there are injuries.

With Pryce being as big as he is he ought to be able to cover every position in the team bar scrum half!

I know can't because he because he probably doesn't know how but the physique he has ought to make him a great utility player.

Dave

He played there in the world club championship against Wests

I disagree with 'p1e e8ter'

Darrell shows more confidence than Pryce does. He wasn't dropped last year because of his confidence because the games that he did play in he either scored or set up a couple of good tries. He was dropped last year to salford, which was a huge mistake, which is what i believe knocked his confidence.

He has come back this year fresh after an injury and looks like a completely different player, as someone on here has stated his stats, it clearly shows that he is a better player than Pryce.

How can you say that Pryce can score 10/15 yards out better than Goulding, when their tries have been similar, however Darrell has had a few where more effort has been needed. He has been very good this year and has improved so much in defense and out of the two, shows so much more confidence and the will to do things for himself to help the team.

Except even a totally untrained amateur like me can find in less than 5 minutes that Darrell's stat's are not =#FF0040clearly better than Karl's at all, and that the guy who does have training and experience in analysing stats, has access to far more of them, and even has staff to work on analysis, and most importantly above all else =#FF0000Know's exactly what he's asked each player to do in each match, and how they've measured up, must have drawn one conclusion that nobody can argue with:

In the opinion of Michael Maguire, Karl Pryce has been a better option for the =#FF0000team performance on the =#FF0040left wing than Darrell Goulding on the =#FF0040left wing

Beyond that, it's just opinions from all of us.

My own personal take is given a fully fit back in the swing of things side, Pat will be on the left wing and Amos will either be at fullback or on the right wing depending on what happens with Phelps in the remaining games. Medium to long term, I feel (like Cadoo and Rogues) that Karl's future is in the centres and that the current wing play is just a stepping stone to that goal (wing is used a lot in the NRL to bring on players destined for other positions). I also think that Darrell's future may lay in the same direction (dependant upon his own personal development).

The whole situation is kind of a little silly, and as a set of fans we should be just enjoying both Darrell and Karl being given chances and developing their games this season - far more than under BN. Maybe all of us just need to take a step back and celebrate that, rather than us either finding fault, or endlessly having to defend particular players.

I completely disagree and if the stats showed Pryce was better in these areas I am fairly sure then you wouldnt be trying to make the excuses that you are. In all of the main areas, such as carries, runs from dummy half, metres, tackle busts and clean breaks, then Goulding's stats are better if you average them out per game. This is fact. You can make any excuses you like about left/right patterns etc but they are simply that, excuses. You use the case of Carmont and Gleeson to try and back this up but it is obvious to anyone watching the games that Gleeson comes inside and looks for work a lot more than Carmont and makes the hard yards that Carmont does not. I am no great Gleeson fan but he does work very hard in this area. If Richards plays on the left he makes plenty of runs from dummy half, metres, tackle busts and clean breaks. Pryce just doesnt look for the work and when he does is too slow and does not use his size effectively and that is why his stats are so poor.