Quote ="Saint #1"I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach. My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies. The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job. The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.'" I've highlighted Brennan a few times. He seems to be ready to take on a big job and I'd love to see what he could bring to SL.

Quote ="Saint #1"I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach. My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies. The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job. The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.'" I've highlighted Brennan a few times. He seems to be ready to take on a big job and I'd love to see what he could bring to SL.

Quote ="Saint #1"I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach. My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies. The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job. The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.'" And after all that we finished 4 seconds away from finishing top of the league (which was out of our hands) and a try away from being champions - ultimately the double. All teams have strengths and weaknesses. Let's look at Saints: If you don't gift them a penalty and make them come out of their own twenty they are not a team that will score full length tries. Do this you will beat them. Every time. Give them a set from twenty out from your own line (or drop a bomb) you're in trouble. We will have better attacking options next year with Tomkins back, same structures likely though!

Quote ="Saint #1"I posted this on another thread but I think it's just as relevant here; The problem with your team is that you've kept the style of play Maguire brought over, but your personnel has changed. Your spine are probably slightly less effective runners (Tomkins & Green vs Bowen & Williams), and with Bateman in the centres, your only second rower who is capable of hitting an effective 'in' line is Farrell. With the likes of Sarginson, Bateman, J Tomkins and Gelling, they're the sort of players who IMO rather than playing right at the line, need the ball earlier and be given time and space to use their footwork and hand off. Strikes me as trying to fit your players into a playing style rather than finding the right playing style for your players which is probably where Wane falls down compared to a smarter coach. My judgement of Wane is that he seems adored by his players who will run through brick walls for him. However, he struggles to innovate or change things, so once a team has your attack figured out you're relying on individual brilliance to get you over the line. The last time you played Saints we kept you out with 6 consecutive defensive sets IIRC. Yet I'd imagine if we had met you in the Grand Final, you'd have attacked in exactly the same way. I'm not convinced that's something he can get away with if he's looking to win trophies. The best place to scout coaches IMO is either NRL assistant coaches (at the decent clubs) or the top NSW/QLD cup coaches. You'll only get them for two or three years but they'll be driven, they'll have up-to-date knowledge and they've served their apprenticeship and they've made their rookie mistakes at a club that isn't yours. Two decent choices (if possible) would be Garth Brennan and the Walker brothers. Garth Brennan has coached the Penrith NSW Cup team to a premiership last year and they're joint top this year (despite huge injuries apparently). Geoff Toovey would be a great coach as well but think he'll go for the Australia job. The Walker brothers are really interesting, they coach the Ipswich Jets in the QLD Cup and "are changing the way rugby league is played" - "they don't use second man plays, they kick off/drop out short EVERY time, they don't care about completion rates", which is so far away from the conventional wisdom. Yet it seems to be working - Ipswich Jets won the QLD Cup this year and beat the NSW Cup winners, despite spending less than a third of what the the other QLD Cup Grand Finalist do on player salaries. Both Brennan and the Walker brothers were been linked to the Newcastle job. www.dailytelegraph.com.au/sport/ ... 7380230376 This is worth a read on the Walker brothers, would love to see them coach a top level side.'" And after all that we finished 4 seconds away from finishing top of the league (which was out of our hands) and a try away from being champions - ultimately the double. All teams have strengths and weaknesses. Let's look at Saints: If you don't gift them a penalty and make them come out of their own twenty they are not a team that will score full length tries. Do this you will beat them. Every time. Give them a set from twenty out from your own line (or drop a bomb) you're in trouble. We will have better attacking options next year with Tomkins back, same structures likely though!

Seriously, you think there hasn't been a change in the style of play? Would you see the ball thrown around like it was at the weekend under McGuire? The defensive line is brilliant at times but the clinical aspect of the tackle has been lost, it feels less shape/calculated than McGuire with more scrambling in defence. The same is true Wigan's attack, it's less structured, yes there's set plays but again, not quite the same as Moran isn't the player to hit those lines well unlike Tomkins, but that step and acceleration make him brilliant at times in broken play.

I don't think so. I just checked the stats and you made 289 offloads in 2015, 255 in 2010, 267 in 2011. So a slight increase but not massive. I think since Maguire came your game has always been based around line speed and numbers in the tackle in defence and in attack working to one side of the pitch with three second-man plays to the open side. I think with your defence for example, it's just as structured as it was under Maguire, it's just slightly less well-coached if I've explained that okay.



It's not a slight to say that Wigan are very structured, I just think that sometimes you'd be better served being a bit less so.



I think he'll get an NRL job in a year or two anyway. The way Gould speaks about him helps too. I'd be really interested to see the Walker brothers over here, I think their style of play would be much more suited to Super League than the NRL.

There has been some fantastic analysis on here that makes great reading. I would just add my thoughts, for what the are worth. We play a very attractive style of rugby. We throw the ball about and can score tries from anywhere. We defend as a team and, generally speaking, we are pretty successful. There are subtle changes that have been introduced to our attack; most notably the little inside ball from Tomkins to Bowen. Shaun Wane is not all about biff & hammer. He is a meticulous coach with an attention to detail. Last season we were pipped to two trophies by a Leeds team that found ways to win. They will not be the same team next season. We shall be favourites for every trophy next season. Quite rightly so, in my opinion. Shaun Wane is the man responsible for that.

There has been some fantastic analysis on here that makes great reading. I would just add my thoughts, for what the are worth. We play a very attractive style of rugby. We throw the ball about and can score tries from anywhere. We defend as a team and, generally speaking, we are pretty successful. There are subtle changes that have been introduced to our attack; most notably the little inside ball from Tomkins to Bowen. Shaun Wane is not all about biff & hammer. He is a meticulous coach with an attention to detail. Last season we were pipped to two trophies by a Leeds team that found ways to win. They will not be the same team next season. We shall be favourites for every trophy next season. Quite rightly so, in my opinion. Shaun Wane is the man responsible for that.

There has been some fantastic analysis on here that makes great reading. I would just add my thoughts, for what the are worth. We play a very attractive style of rugby. We throw the ball about and can score tries from anywhere. We defend as a team and, generally speaking, we are pretty successful. There are subtle changes that have been introduced to our attack; most notably the little inside ball from Tomkins to Bowen. Shaun Wane is not all about biff & hammer. He is a meticulous coach with an attention to detail. Last season we were pipped to two trophies by a Leeds team that found ways to win. They will not be the same team next season. We shall be favourites for every trophy next season. Quite rightly so, in my opinion. Shaun Wane is the man responsible for that.

I am not sure that is quite true- if Wigan have one attacking weakness it is when close to the opponents line, time and time again in the play-offs and noticably in the GF Wigan had great possession near the opposition try line but came away with nothing - almost a case of lacking ideas when in that part of the field. It is something that needs to be addressed next season as I think it was part of why Wigan were not quite good enough in the GF (and some excellent Leeds defence).

Something for Wane to look at to improve the team next year.

Sam Tomkins will improve us ten fold close to the line, teams will be looking for him opening up space for our outside backs.

Not sure I’d agree with all of that. Quite a few times this season we seem to have struggled to break down defences despite numerous sets in their danger area. Salford at home, Saints away (super 8s) and the grand final spring to mind. I think playing Smith at 7 and McIlorum at 9 have something to do with that to be honest, particularly compared to our main rivals who have McGuire/Burrow or Walsh/Roby in those positions who all have far more to offer in attack.

Some of that's surely just down to defences being more on their game at the season's end (we'll make an exception for hudds)? We (Leeds) have ripped a few teams apart at various points of the season but we weren't really any more creative than you once the play offs rolled round. You can always look for improvement, sure, but back end games between the best clubs are almost invariably tight.

It was an issue for Wigan all season - we could score long range tries for fun but always seemed to struggle when close to the opponents line - especially against good defences. Yes defences got better as the season progressed as expected but Wigan seemed to lack ideas at times - passing the ball across the line but never really looking threatening. We always looked more threatening from 20 yards+ out than right on the line.

It's not easy to score tries from short range against a good defence. We see it in the NRL too. I've watched the Roosters, Cowboys, all the top teams struggle to do that on occasion despite plenty of repeat sets. It's not a criticism of the attacking abilities of Pearce, Thurston etc etc.

That's not to say there's no room for improvement in our attack, though. FWIW I fully agree with Walsh/Roby and McGuire/Burrow offering more than our current incumbents.

Our short range grubber kicking close to the line is a major weakness compared to other teams and is an area that needs sorting before next season.

Which other teams? Leeds the eventual champions barely ever force drop outs with grubber kicks, and wigan have caused leeds numerous problems this season with kicks near to the line. Leeds more often seem to prefer to run it on the last close to the line and worst case scenario they don't score, they make the opposition bring the ball out right on their own try line.

And Leeds grubbing kicking is still infinitely better than Wigan's. The Grand Final was a good example, Leeds score a try from it. Wigan have Joel Tomkins trying it when we've put it wide and have run out of ideas.

The short kick with runners is something we rarely execute well, as it's usually gone through too many hands and we're out wide.

I actually think our kicking close to the line has been as good this year as it has in a while. That has all been down to George Williams IMO whos very talented in that respect.

He'll only continue to improve as well and Sam Tomkins will improve us further.

Totally agree. Our short kicking game is not as bad as some may think, although I do agree it went astray in the Grand Final.

It is not just the short kicking game - it is the whole breaking down tight defence near the line - for some reason Wigan seem to have less chance of scoring from 5 -10 yards out then from further out. For me it has been an issue for at least the last two years, there were signs last season with the short pass/turn back inside move that worked quite quite well late in the season that finally the penny had dropped that there were other options - will Sam make a difference - I hope so because many times last season when Wigan were camped on the opponents line that I genuinely did not feel that Wigan had the guile or ability to score, but from 10 yards+ distance I had much more confidence.

Don't all side struggle to get past a set defence from close range? Are Wigan any different to other sides in that respect?

Quite so. When we successfully defend repeat sets near our line, it's praised as good defence on our part rather than poor attacking, but when other teams do it to us it's our attack that's at fault, and nothing to do with their good defence.

In my opinion Saints are by far the best team for scoring short range tries.
They are generally not a team that can go full length unlike ourselves & Leeds, keep them pinned in their own line and don't give away penalties and they can be beaten (quite convincingly too). It's only when the ref starts giving them penalties (or the opposition give away possession in their own twenty) that they get on a roll and score from short range.



Look at our last two visits to LP for evidence.

Of course it should be difficult to score from close range but not as hard as we make it look. As mentioned Saints are masters of it (but in fairness that down to their pretty dull style of play) and the other top sides are far better then us.

It's certainly an area to work on. We are probably the best team in the league from deep (but get labelled as a structured team who aren't the best to watch) but we'll not always be able to rely on that.

Yep, and perhaps no coincidence that their coach made a career of short-range, barge-over tries when he was playing.

Well that doesn't work. Just because our defence may be excellent it doesn't follow our opponent's defense is equally good. If it isn't then if we still struggle to score near the line against less good defences then there [iis[/i an issue with our attack.

What you want to look at is how we go attacking close to the line v the same team as a comparable side. So compare how good we are v Saints close to the line compared to how good Leeds are v Saints close to the line. No idea if these sorts of stats are available but if the general impression is we aren't so good in this area on attack then the fact we might make other teams look poor close to [iour[/i line is neither here nor there.