I doubt it. When was the last time you heard of a company CEO bailing out a loss making organisation out of their personal wealth? He might have done this but it's just as likely the club has borrowed money (as all business do) to finance their operations.



Needs to factor in even more cash for severance pay then.

Noticed it mentioned the value of Orrell as £3.6m, isn't the rumour that we have sold the site for housing?

If so, that will sort out any losses short term anyway!

The whole sponsorship of our shirts has been a mystery to me, we seem to have unheard of or parochial companies whereas some other SL clubs have managed to attract national household brands.

We should be casting the net to catch a Vodafone (tie up to NZ warriors?), a Samsung (PL and SL champions link), Emirates (deep pockets) etc. etc.

Are we the most famous club in the world or not?




selling land and assets is not a viable long term model

It depends how much they are offering though. I'd rather have a more small local sponsor than a big global name if they are willing to pay more. Realistically I suspect improving attendances and (probably more importantly) Sky viewing figures would need to happen to improve our attractiveness to sponsors.

If Im honest the fact that average crowds have declined by a couple thousand when we have been relatively successful says it all - if we had won not pots the decrease would have been significantly higher.
The biggest worry for IL will be new applications for season tickets i.e. first time buyers. The stat on that will be horrendous.
Personally I like IL and I would be amazed if there are not significant changes next year in the squad and coaching.

He does do this.

The club has a bank overdraft with Barclays which stood at £378k at the end of the financial year - Lenagan personally guarantees this with the bank on behalf of the club.

At the end of 2016 the club owed Lenagan £5.9m (up from £4.8m in 2015) through the loans provided by his investment company (which is the club's parent company).

Without Lenagan the club would be up poop creek.

The increase in rental cost is in relation to increased match revenues (i.e. higher ticket prices etc). The lease we have bases rental costs on match revenues.

Like I said the club has loans. It's Barclays who actually gave the money in the form of an overdraft to the club, not IL. How do you know he [ipersonally[/i guarantees these loans? He'd be a bit mad to personally guarantee any loans. The clubs has assets (Orrell) a bank would have no trouble in securing such an overdraft on. Even if he does personally guarantee the overdraft it's still Barclay's who have lent the money to the club.

As to the investment company, if the clubs owes his investment company £5.9m that is who it owes the money to. I don't doubt he had to come up with a wedge of cash to buy the club in the first place which he will presumably have funded the investment company with and this is where I assume most of the £5.9m debt comes from. And if the club owes the money used to buy it that means he has not gifted the club the cash he used to buy it in the first place. Not that I expect him to necessarily but he has still loaded the debt onto the club which he might expect to recover if he ever sold it. He may never expect it back but it is currently a debt not a gift. If that £5.9m doesn't come mainly from him buying it in the first place then that is an average of £590K a year he has chucked at the club. I can't see how he can have been doing that or the club would have recorded bigger losses in past seasons.

I really don't know where to start with this - you've clearly not looked at the accounts. If you did you wouldn't have written this (or maybe you would?).



The club overdraft went DOWN last year - Operating loss for the year was over £600k.



Because it says this in the accounts:
"[iMr I F Lenagan, a Director of the Company, has provided personal guarantees to the Bank on behalf of the Company[/i"



As I've already said the bank overdraft reduced last year (from £392k to £378k) but the operating loss was over £600k. Who do you actually think is funding the loss?



The investment company is Lenagan if you'd bother to read the accounts. The amount owed went up by over a £1m last year alone and now stands at £5.9m. He bought the club for £2m. Without the Lenagan family the club would be in financial trouble.

No I have not looked at the accounts but I do understand the difference between an individual and a company and the fact that IL vias his investment company has loaded the money spent onto the club as a debt so it's a not a gift. Given Orrell is valued at £3.6m if it all went belly up tomorrow he's also not facing a £5.9nm loss either. If he bought it for £2m and the club owes £5.9m where did the £3.9m come from? He's been in charge 10 years. If this sort of loss and level of debt had been reported under the previous regime they would not be being accorded the accolade as a saviour. People would be slagging the situation off because the club was being run at a loss requiring handouts.

It makes a few posts about Lenagan using the club for personal gain in the thread about the Aussie game seem even more crazy this news. I remember one which went along the lines of-

Income
Gate Recepits £2.5m
Sky Money-£2m

Outgoings
Wages-£1.8m
Stadium Rent-£300k

They indicated that Lenagan must be taking the rest!

Brilliant.

Seriously Dave, read the accounts for the club and Lenagan Investments then come back and tell me why Lenagan isn't propping up the club. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about because you clearly don't know the figures, yet seem incapable of admitting it.

Indeed - a little knowledge is a dangerous thing. No knowledge is the internet.

Does anyone have the profit and loss year on year since Lenagan took over?

Haven't we had a mixed bag of profits and losses over the past 10 years? And with a better projected result for 2017 this would continue that trend.

I'd guess this is probably not the case for many sports clubs who consistently make losses year on year.

IL has stated on many occasions that he wants the club to "wipe it's own face".

I see the trolls are out on social media loving the £600k loss but they probably didn't bat an eyelid in the years we made profits.

The really alarming thing is that this loss was posted during your super league winning season! It's evident that without IL you wouldn't be in business but this is no different to a lot of clubs. DaveO, if you look at the parent company accounts, the loan made to Wigan rugby club has come from IL personally as it has increased by the same amount as his directors loan in there. Lenagan investments owes IL 5.9m. Money he's never going to see again!

Regards

King James

Does the club get any return on Stadium sales of food and drink on match days, or does the Stadium company bank the lot?

Not necessarily, it just means that the club would be looking at a different business model where it has to cut its cloth instead of knowing it can make a loss which will be covered.

If you could get back to playing good rugby (coach ?) I'm sure the fans you've lost, (even following last years GF win) would come back.
But will they come back to see sterile Rugby ?
Even for big games support is down especially when you have to travel, I think fans are just a bit demoralised with what's been turned out, versus what your used to ??

It's easier said than done, But get those fans back and you break even.

Quote ="Th'Observer"Does anyone have the profit and loss year on year since Lenagan took over? Haven't we had a mixed bag of profits and losses over the past 10 years? And with a better projected result for 2017 this would continue that trend. I'd guess this is probably not the case for many sports clubs who consistently make losses year on year. IL has stated on many occasions that he wants the club to "wipe it's own face". I see the trolls are out on social media loving the £600k loss but they probably didn't bat an eyelid in the years we made profits.'" Financials from 1997 to 2016 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ory?page=1 And if you think it's purely down to not owning our own ground then read this on Red Vee www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... sses-Widen

Quote ="Th'Observer"Does anyone have the profit and loss year on year since Lenagan took over? Haven't we had a mixed bag of profits and losses over the past 10 years? And with a better projected result for 2017 this would continue that trend. I'd guess this is probably not the case for many sports clubs who consistently make losses year on year. IL has stated on many occasions that he wants the club to "wipe it's own face". I see the trolls are out on social media loving the £600k loss but they probably didn't bat an eyelid in the years we made profits.'" Financials from 1997 to 2016 https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/comp ... ory?page=1 And if you think it's purely down to not owning our own ground then read this on Red Vee www.redvee.net/forums/showthread ... sses-Widen

and were does the acquiring of robin park come in all this?

What do you mean?
These are the 2016 accounts, the Robin Park acquisition, Orrell sale, hasn't been concluded as yet, to my knowledge.

Why do we all care about the P&L? A loss made, writedown, exceptional costs whatever, that's no tax to pay and carry the loss over to next year.

Because somebody needs to fund the losses. Thankfully Lenagan is at the moment (to the tune of £5.9m) but in the medium and long term the club needs to be able to "wash it's own face" or it isn't sustainable - just remember what happened to us in 1999.

Where do I see these accounts? I never know where to look. I don't think it's true he won't see [iall[/i of that money again. If he sold the club and its assets he'd expect at least £3.6m for Orrell. His loss would not be insubstantial at well over £1m but he's not going to be out £5.9m.

As an aside I think the money paid to lease the DW is an absolute bargain. It is dirt cheap considering the pitch relaying but even without it, it's nothing compared to the interest of a loan to build a stadium that cost £25m and it's running costs. Sure you might be able to make a profit on the ground if you owned it but it's hard work and not worth the hassle in my opinion.

Which sports clubs with high(ish) turnover DON'T owe large sums to owners/investors? Ideally the club would be self-sufficient but a lot of the investment has come from IL's own ideas and plans for expansion which will hopefully come to fruition in the near-mid future (e.g. Central Park, Orrell, Wigan TV, 2014 WCC venture in Aus paid for by us?, marquee players, setting up an office in London - I think that happened in the end?). Most other clubs aren't making investments anywhere near that level, the clubs posting profits and with lower debts will be investing on field only whereas IL wants Wigan to become a global brand. If he pulls the plug he will either take the debts with him as shares or a new owner will take them on, there's no way he'll just leave us up the creek.