It was definitely something of a wake up call. Catalans played the conditions perfectly and we made some sloppy errors early on, but much like last season the pack was well and truly dominated.

In some of our early games it was noticeable that Singleton and Ellis made little impact. It was particularly apparent against Leeds but they were so woeful they couldn't make anything of their pressure. There was always a concern that a good team wouldn't be as toothless and so it's turned out to be. Singleton as our most experienced prop should be our pack leader but once again he was barely noticeable.

One of the positive things from previous games was the versatility of the team and the fact that we can move players around to cause problems so it was really frustrating that Pearce-Paul, probably our only player who was carrying strongly and consistently, was isolated out wide while an underperforming Bateman was kept at second row. Get Pearce-Paul closer to the action because the ball was never going to go wide unless someone created space.
Shorrocks, as a ball playing 13, managed to make one half break before once again being switched to hooker where he's not effective. It felt like there was never a point where the coaching staff felt like a change might be needed if we were to try to get back into the game.

I'm still yet to see why we kept Willie Isa aside from him being a really nice guy. He's a hard worker just like every other option at 13 but his wages could have been spent on bringing in a player to strengthen a different area rather than having half a dozen loose forward options of which he might be the most experienced but also the most limited. Smithies was one of the few decent performers tonight and we know that Shorrocks is a decent player. That middle unit of Singleton, Ellis and Isa just doesn't look effective enough.

It's not a disaster, but it's proof that our problems from last season haven't disappeared in the space of a few months after a few wins.

I wonder what they really think of O’Neill when we resort to Shorrocks and stick with Powell? There’s a core of the team that have been there through the back end of the Wane era and then the Lam shambles who we need to get ruthless with. Powell and Isa for example are products of a squad we can’t sustain if we want to progress. Then there’s Partington, Shorrocks, Byrne, Smithies and Smith who although young just seem stale already due to the large number of games they were exposed to. I’m not sure what we do to rectify some of that lot being overpaid as per the comments last year about ‘rewarding’ young players with what I think are silly contracts. The club system just seems to produce the same carbon copies at the moment.

I called it at the time and alluded to it in my post above, but the two year contract for Isa was/is absolutely criminal. It was pretty obvious last season that the game was going past him and Smithies was on the cusp of being ready. We're 5 or so games into the season (including the friendlies) and it's all there for everyone to see. Like you said, the money for Isa's renewal should have gone towards someone with a point of difference i.e a bit of size in that backrow.

It's a Clubb esq deal and, like Tony, he'll be a dead weight to carry for the next two years. Add in Partington (2 years left) and Singleton (2 years left) and it screams mismanagement imo. Where's the balance there?

Isa has really struggled at 13, he just isn’t bringing anything really. He’s not got any size to dent the line, his ball skills are poor and surprisingly for him, he’s looked quite sluggish. You would expect him to play that Knowles style 13 role (obviously to a lesser level) in terms of leading our line speed, being aggressive and setting a tone but it’s been so timid.

On the flip side I’ve been happy with Smithies start to the season and I’ve been calling for it from week one but he now must get the start.

I'm a big fan of both Smithies and Byrne tbh.

I'd have no problem with Smithies being the bench cover, or replacements for Faz or Bateman - like everyone says "you need players like that". In an ideal world, Bateman isn't performing and he'd be rotated out for Smithies. You'd be happy with that, if it was done alongside us having a big 13 in the side. Sadly it isn't and guys like Smithies are being questioned when in reality it isn't there fault.

Likewise, I have no issues with Byrne being our 5th choice lad & actually can't think of many 5th choice, 23yr olds better than him. The issue is that Singleton has been a complete dud of a signing and, like the above with Smithies, that has a negative impact further down the pecking order. If Singleton isn't softening them up, then that makes Byrne's job even harder.

I haven’t watched the game or seen any highlights but I think it’s a huge bump back down to earth. As much as I hate to say it, it proves how far St Helens and Catalans are ahead and how much ground we have to make up

I hope you're right.

The young French guy has clearly played all his rugby in this modern era when there's no real retaliation for grub play. Now he knows the biff hasn't entirely gone away.

I agree that it was still a foolish reaction. Ellis will get banned, but he clearly wasn't the instigator of that fracas.

Isnt punching like a 2 game ban not a 5-8 game ?

Are we not brave enough to play Shorrocks at 13 and O'Neill at 9? Maybe swap KPP and Bateman (if available)?

Everything seems to have increased. Paul Cullen mentioned running in to a melee and punching was an automatic 8 games now but he didn’t do that, so I’m thinking 3 to 5 (bit I’m not sure).

On current form that would seem quite a sensible suggestion
Will be interesting to see Peet’s reaction.

I was hoping for a positive response to the Toulouse debacle but it wasn’t to be.
I cannot comment on tonight as I haven’t seen the game but suspect the main problem is our lack of pace in defence and lack of power generally.

We are slow in the extreme. Defensively very poor. As a club who prided itself on defence we have become easy. Toulouse scroring 20+ got my alarm bells ringing.

I accept we are work in progress but yet another zip is pretty embarrassing.

For me the main issue is an unbalanced squad with a shortage of real quaily players in key positions basically across the piece. The future potentially looks exceptionally bright but currently too many players in key positions who probably aren’t good enough.

The backrow of Farrell, Bateman and Isa is too lightweight. One from three is acceptable, two from three is doable with a big front row but three from three is second tier.

I predict Leyth in the CC and let’s see what that brings.

Disappointed but not overly surprised. Hopefully we can respond against Cas.

Completely outlawed this year, it may very well be 8 games

Dont panic yet,just a blip we will bounce back Thursday with a thrashing of Cas.
Look we was only out played,out muscled,out enthused,out thought and out coached so if you think about it :something to work on :.

Regards glass half full fella

Fair play if it is. I’m there to watch a game of rugby not amateur boxing.

Makes me cringe when people how have sat on their phones most of a game, jump up and down as soon as a “fight” breaks out, shouting “IT IM”.

8 game should outlaw it, Peet seemed fuming with Ellis.

We’ll miss Ellis though. Hopefully Havard gets back soon.

And that's why the sport is heading for an early grave - including the NRL which is miles above us as a sporting spectacle.

We're sanitising the game for the sake of a small minority of people. Have a look at what the top viewed RL videos are on YouTube and it's full of big hits (many would carry a ban today) and fights. Why? Because people like watching confrontation. It's the reason people pay (not just watch) to see boxers on PPV, or why the UFC has exploded over the last 20 years. Guys like Eddie Hearn and Dana White saw what people wanted, gave it to them and made it must watch TV. We + RU took what was great and moved away from it.

BTW, apart from having huge by ratings, the Khan Vs Brook fight was full of celebrities & PL footballers - I remember a time when that was a Wigan Vs Saints derby. It was must see TV because you knew it would everything, including biff.

Why is football so popular then?

Rubbish! You don't make a lick of sense. The NRL has never had better viewing figures, it is booming, the game is awash with money in Oz. So you can't use accusations of sanitising the game being damaging there. The truth is, those who 'like the biff' are mostly sad old men (my age, I hasten t add) who are not the sport's future. Much like those who pine for winter rugby. From football to rugby union, even ice-hockey, the trend in all sports as been to cut the thuggery out. And quite right too. Sports need to be TV- and family-friendly.

I wonder if those people watching 'big hits' on YouTube have any real interest in the sport, or ever attend matches.

How's it rubbish? You point to one thing and ignore the rest?

I've watched the NRL coverage this week on the Australian Fox network and every commercial break is pumping the Tim Tszyu fight that's coming up. It's almost like there's a coloration between the two demographics...

Is boxing not seeing a boom btw? Are the fights now not a must see/attend event? People pay for Sky & then pay extra to watch a fight. Has the UFC not exploded over the last 2 decades with guys like McGregor now being recognisable to even the regular Joe on the street? What's family friendly about it too? I guess they are all sad old men. Or maybe those sports are now the ones for working class people who are looked down upon by others?

I'm a big RU fan and the sport has never been worse btw. The England Vs Ireland game yesterday was ruined after 80 secs. It's a TMO's wet dream with anything and everything being reviewed and penalised.

I'm not interested in boxing (although obviously many are), but because it's popular, that doesn't mean thuggishness should be encouraged in other sports.

But I agree about England/Ireland. They dish out cards like confetti there. And the yellow cards for deliberate knock-ons (and sometimes with the added bonus of a penalty try) seems wildly disproportionate.

I think we're just on the opposite sides of arguments (there's nothing wrong with that btw). For me, I see RL trying to follow RU and Football and being a sanitised sport that appeals to a family demo. I'd rather go down a boxing or even darts route that goes after men and doesn't feel ashamed by that.

I’m all for banning them for punching but I do think there needs to be a system that allows for each case to be judged on its merits. By that I mean somebody like Ellis should not get the same as a man who runs in and punches from behind. Last night was a poor reaction by Ellis but it was to a poor challenge and there lad threw back as well.

I think we can all deal with it being 3 or 4 games but not 8. To me 8 would be a bit of a joke. It’s a poor reaction but it’s a reaction all the same, it’s not just somebody throwing punches for the sake of it and being a thug.

Whilst we are on, or around this topic, it's the double standards & hypocrisy that irritates me more than anything. There was a perfect example of both in last night's game.

Dudson lead with a forearm to Zak's throat last night and nothing was said or done by the ref. Likewise, nothing was said by the idiots on Sky who just talked about Wigan's mistakes instead.

Flip the incident around and ask yourself what would have happened If that was Zak, as the tackler, who'd hit Dudson in exactly the same spot. What's the difference? Likewise from a hypocrisy POV, the guys on Sky would have at least talked about it.

We (as a sport) are all either all in on this, or not. If contact above the neck = dangerous, then it doesn't matter which way that goes.

Good point about Zak he did cop one in the throat,I did expect a penalty at least poss a sin bin. Will see what the powers that be say.

Agreed. The long-term bans should be reserved for serious foul play, like cheap shots, stamping on players or punching players on the ground.

He looks to be up for 5 to 8 games. Looking at the disciplinary site the fact he aims at the head is bad news though, so it could be top end. I’m not sure I’ve ever seen a player throw a body punch but if they have enough brains to lose their head, whilst thinking on their feet, they better go for a body shot or maybe the old dead arm punch

(or even better just do the Bateman grapple).