It's supposed to be when the foot touches the ball, although the foot never touches the ball a lot of the time which complicates things.

The individual quality of most of the players on the field I would personally rate as very good/excellent.

But their performance as a "team" is poor and that has got to be down to the inadequacies of the coach and his staff.

IMO the current team is a mirror image of Wane as a player. A player who was injury prone and who averaged only 15 games per season including appearances as a substitute. And when he was on the field he gave too many penalties away and dropped too much ball.

Neither a legend as a player or as a coach.

Get rid and freshen up the club and the team because both are so boring.

... this.

I have to agree, that team from last night should be standing up to any team in the current league with little issue. forget our injury run and "time being needed to bed in" again. that's rubbish. they are professionals. its an excuse that can no longer be used. we are almost at full strength so the blame lies away from the players in my opinion too.

To be fair quite a lot of patience was lost last year in the Wane methodology...............before anyone says Yes I know we won GF etc etc but that is the whole problem. We papered over the cracks all last season with the amount of games we won by 1-4 points showed that we just did enough and won't always last.

There are many things wrong and very annoying that many fans see but why doesnt Wane? How many times do we when fielding a kick (with our props / second row / hooker walking back) and our set goes - Winger, Centre, Centre, Winger and Prop (get to about 40 metres) and then a random half hearted bomb which doesnt have enough height / length for us to compete for ball to either catch or tackle man making minimal metres. Forwards then try put to much effort into the tackle / wrestle and then its penalty, penalty which tires even more of the middle men out. Centres / Wingers / George are doing so much work clearing our line that when it comes to attack at the right end of the field they are gassed but the forwards are always there in the way.

Was discussing last night main highlight for me v Catalans was second half try when Gildart went in and out dragged winger in and put Burgess away. He did similar thing at Leigh but these moments are so far and between because the ball isnt moved out quick enough or we just arent getting in good position due to what I have mentioned above.

As anything really changed since Madge left (game plan / structure)?

I totally agree with some of the other comments there is too many of Wanes mates involved and he keeps them very close to him, Paul Johnson, Steve Blakeley, Matty Peat, Daryl Goulding and he as brought back all the players he liked from St Pats or lower grade who all wont question or go against him which I think he needs at times. Why did Iyestn Harris leave, why did Paul Deacon leave...........?both attacking coaches at the club who both left under a bit of a cloud.

Crowds are going down and a lot of fans are fed up with the rubbish being turned out. I wont say i am not going to go or anything like that but dont look forward to it as years gone by and considering we are winning trophies which a lot of people will tell me it doesnt feel that way........does it ?

Course there has to be time needed to bed in, eg Bateman is getting better week by week and as you said yourself of the other thread regarding Tierney going on loan to Catalan "Dom hasn't played for a year and will no way fit right back in"

Just to add to the misery, no doubt Bateman will pick up a ban for his brain fart at the end of the match leaving us with a second row of Isa + ?. Smashing

I think part of our problem is that we don't particular offer a threat from dummy half, as much as McClorrum and Powell do what they do well, neither of them offer anything particularly different in an attacking sense when the other is off the pitch, so teams know they are going to get from that area for 80 mins and can plan accordingly.

I think you put a Darryl Clarke type player in that side during the game and the likes of Williams & Leululai to a lesser extent would have a field day running at a retreating defence, and would be very likely to create a bit of space for our centres.

Lets be honest Gelling is pretty much being used as a battering ram at the moment.

Bateman was pushed in the face first and retaliated. He will be fine (i hope)

Both were with an open hand too, I'd expect a warning letter for both and that will be the end of it.

Get em up n down Rivington Then a laps round the plantations

Would there be any mileage in playing Tommy at hooker, a position in which he has excelled, bringing Sam up to partner George and using one of our many wingers at the back?

In the short term it's something to consider but longer term we still need a kicking half for me. The lack of pace Sam is showing is quite staggering. I'm not joking here when I say he looks probably slower then Wellens at the back end of his career. Hopefully it's a case of getting up to speed rather then all that pace has gone for good (we clearly know he's not the whippet he was at 21). Other then that pace there isn't a great deal wrong with his game but it's such a huge part of him.

Sorry Nicky but he's not doing enough for me. I can't stand seeing him at acting half back, simply handing the ball on. I've defended him recently but, if I'm honest, I think I was trying to convince myself to some extent. I'm not expecting the "whippet" to return but he's just not going for it IMO. Just because you lack pace doesn't mean you can't make a break. Tommy Martin, Lee Briers and even Andy Gregory did it on a regular basis and they weren't quick.

You can tell Wigan are a team coached by a prop forward. Absolutely clueless.

I am just hoping that he is just nursing his injury through to the CCSF but I'm not going to hold my breath. I'd love him to be even 50% of the player he was.
Personally I would put him in the halves now and give young Davies a dig at FB. It can't be any worse than the present set up.
I just wish he'd stop all the whinging and get on with playing.

Surely not?I didn't think it was a penalty.

He certainly needs to start taking the line on more but even when he does, the pace just isn't there to get him through the gaps. There's numerous players who made breaks without much pace but Sam has never had to be one of those until now. He looks very tentative and we can only hope that side of his game comes on. If it doesn't then we're left with a player on huge money who simply isn't worth it. The rest of his game is good enough. His rugby brain is good, he was buying other players space (until last night) and he's been good defensively. He's a good organiser and a good passer but ultimately for the money him and Leuluai must be on combined we could probably put a tempting offer together for one of the worlds best halves!! (Not that they'd come).

Our recruitment strategy of bringing back all of our old boys isn't going very well and it's something they probably need to look at going forward.

Whether it's through injuries to key players, loss of form, lack of decent signings or lack of fresh ideas in the coaching department, I'd say the club looks at risk of stagnating.

Quite a few of our important players just haven't delivered this year, or having played to a level that you would expect from their status in the squad. Players like Sam Tomkins, Gelling, Leuluai, McIlorum, Tautai, Joel Tomkins, Powell, Isa, Sutton, FPN. Yes, a few of those have struggled with injury but sometimes you've got to make difficult decisions. Gelling I think is just unfortunate, but Joel Tomkins has been plagued with injuries, hasn't played particularly well since returning and is given a new contract! But Lenagan and Wane like him so of course he was brought back and of course they'll give him new contracts.

The policy of re-signing players who have left (Mossop, Sam, Joel, Burgess, Leuluai) has so far been a complete failure with none getting close to their old form. Think of some of the top signings we've missed out on to bring them back. 0 out of 5 seems a pretty bad return for Ian Lenagan's favourite policy.

People said Marshall hardly git a pass, but let's not forget he got a few hospital passes from ST in his own 20!


I felt for hm, actually, I thought he was one of our less bad performers. Watching experienced pros chucking the ball around like headless chickens in the last quarter, all too often into the hands of an opponent, was deeply depressing.

IL has been a great Chairman, transformed the club when he came in.

BUT, he has given Wane too much power, and we are now seeing the results of that.

Re-signing old boys that simply are not good enough, but because they're from Wigan and were at Wigan before they moved to more supposed lucrative deals, they are re-signed.

Turned the club back to the Noble mentality, and it's there to see every game..

Jobs for the boys big time

I agree with a lot of that but I'd leave Sutton out of it. He's been head and shoulders our best prop imo and is coming along nicely.

We need a change in mentality. We seem to be stuck in a mindset that we can just turn up for the last third of the year but we're not going to do a 2016 every year. I've made every excuse under the sun for the defeats this year and of course the injuries took a toll but since the Saints away game I think the players have been guilty of turning it in a little. They gave everything in that game and it seemed to be their last stand yet we lost a game we should've won and since the attitude has been soft. The defeats at Hull and Leigh were shambolic playing against sides with as many players missing as us and since that we were fortunate at times to get some wins. We begged Wire to beat us in the cup, we were so uninterested in the first 25 mins at Huddersfield it was embarrassing (in what I felt was our biggest league game of the year), we went to sleep against Widnes, we took 65 mins to put a decimated Catalans to bed and then came last night!

I still believe we're only a bit of tinkering away from being right in the mix for the lot next year but the attitude needs to change. We need a half with a kicking game, a prop with some go forward and more off the ball work in attack. I remember the early days of Maguire and even in Wanes first couple of years in charge and the movement around the ball was tough to keep up with. At the minute it's just side to side with no runners and no plans.

Pushed Sam Powell out of the way to play dummy half till SP told him to do one . Well done Mr Powell.

Regards , EW

Nicky the attitude has got to change towards the fans. We are taken for granted throughout the club. I couldn't give a rats arris about SOL 400th game after last nights performance but all SW t could comment on was how the players had let down Lockers on Wigan tv last night.

I think we need at least 2 props a centre and if ST can't cover the halves with an improved kicking game a top class 7. Id put TL at hooker with Ganson as his replacement in 2019.The problem for me is if IL doesn't recognise this now and actively recruiting then I can't see any decent recruitment for next year. I would offload MM, Powell, Isa, Flower and Gelling with thankfully Frank the soft arris already going. If we could I'd also offload JT but contractually that could be just a stretch too far for IL.

After improving the squad we need a drastic overall in style and tempo. We must be the slowest team at the Ptb in SL. I think SW is a top bloke but his time has reached its end point unless he can manage drastic changes but as much as I would love to think he could it I just don't see it happening.

I didn't go to the playoffs or GF last year in fact I stopped going after the regular rounds and it will be the same this year. I can't stomach the awful drudgery of wrestling, zero atmosphere and kick and hope kicking. I sincerely hope Cas win the GF by. 30+ margin against whoever they play then maybe the rest of SL will look to emulate their style rather than the sterile approach of all the other teams which is slowly killing the game along with rank poor administration.

Rant over over but unless there is some serious changes I won't be renewing my ST which I've held for many many years except for Nobles last year when I felt exactly the same as I do now.

When the big names are back..then you'll see the real team?

I dont know where that particular bit of nonsense came from,probably from the club and picked up by fans,it was always going to take time for them,butno the magic wand would be waved and all would be well...

Hard choices are needed,Joel simply should not have been given a new contract,half a dozen above average games this season after season of medicority simply didnt warrant it,MM just as in 2015 is drifting through games looking a shadow of his former self though after that injury he does without doubt have a valid reason,but will he ever be the player he was?,Flower just is standing still doesnt ever seemed to have kicked on after the GF fiasco and FPN simply should be bulldozing through yet isnt those are the ones along with another long look at Sam would be the ones i'd be looking to try and move on.

All sides every few years as we know need an overhaul i feel even with the success and more because of the success is the time to do it,they wont,they may win the CC and an elstoplast will be applied to the problem but this time next year unless something changes we will be talking about similar results and performances.

All so sadly true. A couple of years ago I would have been really looking forward to a home game against the Rhinos, but not now. And it's not the fear of defeat, it's the thought of us playing dismal footy against them.