Yes but you would probably struggle to find two more different props. Smith was the ultimate professional who kept himself in top shape and was a workhorse on the field who would give you 60-70 minutes a game. The best we can hope for in regards to Burgess is he eventually turns into a decent Feka-esque impact prop. Hence why the marquee contract offer doesn't sound rational as things stand.

Andy Coley when he first came to us was shocking. He managed to turn it around.

Think all we can do is stick with him. We can’t afford for him to be a flop really. If anything he must be showing the young lads a thing or two.

Coley only became good under Madge as did all the pack

I keep harping on about it, but guys like Smith, Coley or even Pat were all playing & were just out of form. That's a world away from what we are seeing with GB.

Burgess isn't unfit & he's always been a big muscular guy. It's just quite simple that he's not able to do what he needs to do because his body won't let him. We've all heard about the serious hip problem and that's impacting his ability to actually play the game - no amount of game time or coaching will change that.

LF for me is better than Bateman
It’s obviously a personal opinion and I rate Bateman but LF has a bit more about him particularly the lines that he runs and his ball handling

I agree. I think that you have summed it up pretty well there
We all went the guy to succeed but he looks miles away from a top player
Only the medical staff probably knows the true reason for his sheer loss any aspect of a professional rugby player
I truely hope that he can turn it around but it looks a forlorn hope at the moment

Just watched the game again, this time with sober eyes



George Burgess comes on and actually does well for the first 10mins or so. Some good go forward and defensive moves. But he just falls off the end of the earth after that. It got to 45mins and I was half thinking of ringing Cheshire Police to report him missing.

I’m a backer of Burgess but he really needs to start delivering for longer than 5mins. I think serious discussions need to take place at seasons end. He clearly has the ability to be impactive and be the type of prop we wanted, but he can’t sustain it anywhere nearly as long as he should. That could be the hip injury or a mental issue. If he can’t turn it around we’ve signed a massive white elephant for 3 seasons. I’m not going to sit and say it was a poor signing, at the time me and this forum were extremely pleased with his signing but in hindsight perhaps we shouldn’t have offered so much money.

Ethan Havard is exceptional. At 19yrs of age with not even half a seasons SL experience, to do 80mins against a classy, tough team like Cas at prop forward is phenomenal. We really do have a future star on our hands here.

Smithies disappointed me in the game. His double headbutt on Millington was cheap and then to run away from it? The crusher tackle was clumsy, he certainly didn’t intend to harm James Clare and I’m glad he’s alright. Smithies is also an exceptional talent but he needs to cut this kind of stuff out of his game. There’s two types of tough and for me he’s towing the line between the Craig Smith type tough and Kelvin Skerrett type tough. Don’t get me wrong, I don’t mind a bit of biff but he looks like he’s deliberately going for it and it’s going to cost him and us if it continues and gets worse.

Normally I hate it when people are OTT, sensationalist or write players off on a whim, but sadly I can't really see any other logical conclusion than he's got a very serious and debilitating injury.

Obviously you've probably guessed that I prefer Bateman, but I will say that no one cuts a line like Faz.

I'll also say that no matter which way you lean in the Faz Vs Bateman debate - there's no other British 2nd row that comes close & I'm happy we'll have both of them next year.

Quite often we've been able to boast the best back row in Super League. Next year with Farrell, Bateman and Havard we should definitely be able to lay claim to that again.

Smithies is going to cost us games soon, no idea what he's trying to prove but Lam/O'Loughlin need to have a word in his ear, same with Partington, nothing wrong with aggression in their games but they've got to channel it in the right way.
Havard already looks class, hopefully we can keep hold of him for as long as possible.

Must admit I have watched Smithies in games and I do not get a lot of the hype about him, he looks a grafter but not much more - I hope I am wrong but to date I do not see anything in him that really makes me feel he is going to be a top class player - a good player maybe. He works hard and defensively is good but I have not seen anything in his go forward , breaks or passing game which marks him out, maybe time will tell. I would put Partington in the same bracket.

Havard looks a class above though - once he fills out and gets more experience he looks to have the makings of a very good prop.

Thought Wigan in this game were patchy, the half-back pairing looked all at sea at times but there were some glimpses of good play at times. Decent result though but more to come from the team I suspect. - the winger disruption didn't help and a few players looked a bit off top form, the frustration is that it is obvious there is more potential in the squad .

As far as G Burgess is concerned, my take is that I was underwhelmed that we signed him, and sadly am not surprised by his current form. Lets hope we can off load him. Smithies is a worry. Yes, he is a good tackler, but I fear he is already getting a reputation for himself, and bad things can happen thereafter, as per Gareth Hock. I agree, though, that I don't see much ball smarts and rugby brain in operation from him.

He is just a grafter but I think that's pretty good for a 19 year old to be honest. If he goes on to carve out a career similar to Cassidy/Hansen I'd definitely take that. In a salary cap era you need some players like that

He's a 19 year old going up against the likes of Watts, Millington, McMeeken, Massey etc. Perfectly understandable for him to be a bit over-aggressive to make up for it. Yes he needs to stay on the pitch but I wouldn't neuter him just because he's got himself binned. He's hardly a penalty machine generally.

I do not disagree at all but some on here seem to rate him much higher and wonder why.

I agree. I sit on my opinions sometimes for fear of being castigated but my opinion is that Farrell is better than John Bateman and he’s better than Elliot Whitehead. I’ve been on the total RL forum recently saying Faz should be nailed on for a start for England and people have come back saying that view is wrong because Bateman and Whitehead are better but I disagree! Liam Farrell has always been better than Whitehead and just because Whitehead plays in the NRL doesn’t change my mind. It’s a close call between Faz and Bateman but I’ve always felt Farrell’s attack just puts him a slight nudge in front.

To think we’ll have Faz and Bateman again in the same team next year is just brilliant. They will comfortably be the best two second rowers in superleague.

He was injured when you signed him and looks like it hasn't improved.

People used to say similar about Lockers back round 2003/2004. Some young players come in to a side and they just look different. Morgan Smithies looks different to me, he looks comfortable and he looks determined not to let older players bully him. He’s going to be a future captain of Wigan and potentially England IMO. He’s had a poor few games for me since the restart but it’s all a learning curve and he will be so much better when we get on the other side of this. I’m so excited to see what him playing alongside John Bateman will do. A back three of Bateman, Faz and Smithies could be unbelievable!

Not if they perform like they did today. We can beat any team in this competition.

Just checked the stats and Smithies is 19 and has only played 31 games. Comparing him to Havard just shows how good Havard is.

The fact Smithies looks solid despite being so young and inexperienced suggests to me he will stand out in a couple of years. I don't think many can slot into the first team so well at his age. How long was is before Luke Thompson started to stand out for Saints for example? 4 years? Last year Smithies broke the record for tackles in a game!

I've been saying Havard reminds me of Jamie Peacock. It's a high bar but his stats this week are Peacock like, 52 tackles, 25 carries, 146m. Doing that in his 8th super league appearance is unbelievable.

I'm not convinced the team is a real contender this year but it's great watching some of these youngsters at the moment.

That’s got to be the most bizarre and ridiculous comparison I’ve seen. You’re comparing one of the best players in Super League history to Liam Farrell. Farrell is a very good player but he’s most definitely not even close to being one of the best players of all time.

Smithies is and always been a good player, but needs to curb his temperament or he will become, like Mcllorrum and the Tomkin brothers a regular target for the disciplinary committee.

To say, he is overrated is nonsense!

Can someone explain to me exactly what is the point of announcing a 21 man squad 48 hours before kick-off when changes can then be made to it?

Surely the purpose of it is that you go with the 21, no matter what the reason. Even then, you only pick 17 for the game, so it would take an unprecedented 5 withdrawals before any change should be sanctioned. If the coach has picked an inbalanced 21 man squad, then he should have to suffer the consequences.

I don’t think Smithies is overrated but I understand what others are saying about him.

I believe he is outstanding at what he does, but he does have limitations in his game. What I mean by that is players like (and I appreciate it’s unfair comparing him in this company) Hanley, Farrell and Locky were complete players. They pretty much had it all, they were naturals.

Smithies for me is more like a Phil Clark type player. He is a great grafter with an insane engine and I think with time and maturity the line breaking/strike running will come. Is he going to be a player that is going to become the traditional 3rd pivot we have been used to at Wigan? Probably not. Is he going to have to work in his game to make improvements where do of his predecessors had that natural talent? Yes.

The way the game is going I see him more likely as a secondrow than a 13. With a lack of creativity in the 13 role coming though the ranks in any teams I see most clubs going down the line of a 3rd Prop (Harvard/ Flower/ Singleton) at loose with an emphasis on the more dynamic secondrows.

Just because he isn’t as natural a player as some of his predecessors however his contribution can be just as important to the team and he certainly had the potential to be regarded as a future star of SL with his different style of contribution.