I must say that last year we were in transition. We lost a lot of world class talent - including coach and back room staff. We were never going to roll on and win trophies this year. At the beginning most people were happy with mid table, and to me, I think we out performed. Next year ( hopefully) we’ll have better players in and 2020 will be the poo or bust season for Lam. That’s my thoughts anyway.

But you haven’t given any facts, just a nostalgic opinion. Nor have I given any facts but an opinion and an educated one at that.

You think skill level has decreased whilst I in the contrary think it’s increased. I do believe it’s ludicrous to suggest that skill level has decreased since the 90’s. Players now are much fitter, agile and skilful than they were in the 90’s in general.

You keep labouring the point about substitutes; that’s utterly irrelevant. The game has evolved, changed. Boxing used to be 15rounds and before that unlimited rounds, does that mean the game has gone? Absolutely not.

I’m sorry but I completely disagree with everything you’ve said. The game is far more skilful now than it used to be.

again I disagree, players now are clones all similar size. In the 90's they were all specialists. The skill level has decresed due to grass roots for me. You now dont play a full 13 a side and full rules until about under 13's so cant have proper positions. it used to be full rules 13 a side from under 7's. Half backs in the 90's were all more skillful than they are now. Not as big granted but more skillful. Singers werent as big but were faster and more agile. Bradford started the trend with having nearly everyone over 16 stones and its now the blueprint of the game. My point about subs is irrelevant? How many props play 80 minutes now compared to the 90's?

The game has evolved. It learns from what works and implements it. While the games and plays of the 80s may look more skilful they're really not. In the last 10 years we've seen some amazing creative play and feats like no others from acerbating wingers diving for the corner, speedsters, and the most creative halves.
Just look at the likes of Thurston, Slater, Cronk, Inglis, Shaun Johnson, RTS and tell me they're not specialists in their positions.

All in Aus who have a different approach to youth setups. It was more skillful to score as a winger before as you had to beat the man and corner flag, now you just have to beat the man. How are they not more skillful the plays? If they look its because they were......the most creative halves? really?

In the last ten years we've seen the removal of the corner flags thus enabling half decent wingers to look like world beaters with their jazy dives in at the corner, 90% of said tries would have been disallowed ten years back so I wouldn't call any of that more skilful or evolved, Also I would love to see a list of these most creative halves your talking about because I can't think of any, Finally nobodies talking about the NRL so why bring it up to try and prove a point

As Brian Clough once said

Well meet up, have a chat and then both decide I was right!
Simples

your round

I know that none of them are English.
Are you saying that Andy Gregory isn't better than any 7 playing today in SL or that Jonathan Davies wouldn't be the best FB?

Also give me Offiah or any winger with sheer pace flying down the wing anytime before any acrobatics.

Everything in the past was not great far from it but neither is everything today perfect. I think today coaches are under pressure to deliver almost immediately as they are appointed and this can lead to safety first tactics.
I do believe in cycles and that emphasis will change to a more attack minded type of play underpinned by solid defence.
The 1970's in general was pretty turgid and it needed the 1982 Invincibles tour to give the English RL a kick up the backside maybe the next World Cup will be won by an open brand to give us another kickstart.

I actually think that the 2020 season may be pretty decent with a few teams making some good improvements to their squads and hopefully a more competitive league. This could lead to more teams trying some old, some borrowed and hopefully some new plays to give the sport a bit more than 5 drives and a kick.

You touch on the 82 invincibles

6ft plus wingers
6ft plus centres
Back rowers with the speed of our centres and wingers.

Their fitness/strength etc played a major part in them being light years ahead of us.
It probably took 15/20 years for us to catch up on that.

With regards to individual players then rightly or wrongly Andy Gregory would need to fit in to the game plan and structures far more than he had to in the late 80s early 90s, same for Davies or any individualistic type player.

I'm a liverpool fan, but the games changed so much and is so much faster now and tactically/professionally advanced of the game of the mid 80s that this liverpool team would murder the team (in football) that I idolised.
Peter schmeichel was asked after the 99 champions league win to draw a comparison with the 68 team, he said theyd win 10-0, he was right.
And that's not to decry as I say the players of the past etc, but things move on and decade after decade as another roster said, coaches, players learn from things of the past and implement change to improve. That doesn't mean that the game is a better spectacle, but the better players then could expose the weaknesses of the lesser players/teams far easier then they could today.

Would I like to go back to the game of the 80s/90s early 00s then probably yes, but if we want teams and the game to improve then coaches will implement better structures, better individual coaching plans etc and overall each team will be "Better" so to speak.
Of course Greg/Hanley/Edward's/Davies/offiah/ Schofields of this world were exceptional players, and given all the advances that today's players are blessed to have then yes, they could equally be better than the currently players by the same amount they were back then. But they would have to do it within the constraints of today's methods and the fact that ALL players are coached/trained to that level and have the same advantages.
That has equalised a lot of the natural differences that players have and that back in the day separated a lot of the players..

Back on topic with regards to coaching and "Moves".
I'm not saying modern versions of "some" of the old stuff may be able to be used in certain ways, but to simply suggest that we use the same moves and/or get players of the past to come in and coach today's players to be as good as they were is completely lacking in understanding of today's game. I've sat with coaches st a very high level (and people who know me know how and why) and the detail that goes into today's coaching and game.l plans and structures is unbelievable and way ahead of anything that the Joe average fan like me or pretty much all of us on here would like to acknowledge.
That doesn't me we cant have opinions, but theres a reason those guys are in those positions and were not.

Thats what im saying. Youd expect it to but it hasnt. The basic skill level has dropped and players are cloned for 5 drives, the wrestle and tackling.

Creative halves who's played in the last 10 years? And yes I will mention the NRL, the last time I checked it was RL. Ok:

Thurston
Pearce
Johnson
Cronk
Lockyer
Long
Hastings
Briers
Robbie Paul
Paul Deacon

Just off the top of my head. All played in the last ten years. All creative.

I don't think I ever once said Andy Gregory isn't better that any 7 playing today. I also don't think I ever even mentioned Jonathan Davies. This is the issue in here, people argue with themselves and try to win a debate by putting words into someone else's mouth.

all them uk players were playing in the 90's also, it might be RL but isnt what the argument was. So name we some good classy UK halves from this decade?

Everyone on the list played within the last 10 years. All creative.

Now. Name me 10 halves from 80-90 who could play the modern game. And as you’re narrowing down the discussion...from the UK.

And most of them have retired. Game set and match.

I never said you did.
You named half a dozen relatively recent half decent decent players I named 2 older players trying to open up up the the debate.
I won't debate again

Sorry Jukes I don't get your argument.
Are you saying we just need accept that today is better and that's it?
I'm not a yesterday man but I believe today's players in terms of skill are way off the mark. All muscle and no brain driven by conservative coaches.

I think coaches have been totally overrated in the past and in the present. My main complaint isn't necessarily against bigger players but brawn always in front of brains

I know I'm old fashioned but I know what I like and 17 athletes with shoite for brains doesn't float my boat. I want a half back to say to the coach and play what they see.

My favourite coach was Graeme West who today would probably be laughed at but then again which team could go to Australia with no props and beat them comprehensively?
I just dislike structure. The more I see the more I dislike.
Why can't full time more learned coaches come up with plays to turnaround disciplined defences?

Im not negative just challenging today's standard.

Like I said nobody was talking about the NRL so those do not count as for the rest apart from Hastings

Long, Deacon & Paul played 2 seasons out of the last 10 years and Briers played for 3, Hardly an convincing response, Where are all the creative half backs that have played for the majority of the last decade, Surely you could give us a list of at least 6

I'm not sure where you get any of that from and how it relates to my post?
Where did I say anyone has to accept that today is better, you dont have to accept anything.
Your saying in essence today's players and structures are more about brawn over skill? I'm not saying any different.
Just that today's players HAVE to be fitter/stronger etc to be able to compete.
If they dont they will be blown away by what may be a less skilful player but who is better physically, mentally, coached etc.
The amateur game is/was littered with players who had more skill than some of their professional counterparts, but other areas of their game/preparation wasnt up to it.
Lots of people are saying we want to see more creative half backs, fine, the game itself isnt demanding that you have to be less skilful just that tou have to be super fit and fit into structures that the game/coaches demands.
It's quite simple, if more players are fitter, stronger, faster and they all perform well within a good organised structure there will be less opportunities for the other team to exploit.
That's not decrying the skilful players who may find it harder to bring down structures harder than their previous counterparts, it's just harder.

F1 (not really a fan), but are we saying Stirling Moss, ayrton Senna, James Hunt are better/more skilful than today's drivers?
Their asset (The car/technology) demands that they drive and perform in a certain way. I'm sure F1 fans may say that the old sport was better with more passing and excitement, but they would get blown away in today's races.

Golf, Jackn Nicklaus is the Greatest
But he wouldn't have won as many majors today as he did back then. He had that something that separated him from his counterparts of that era. Modern players have taken what worked and made it better and there are now More Better players. It may not be quite as exciting in some ways and the game itself has had to change to make/give some of the technology advances in the game less impact (longer holes and more complicated hole design).

Snooker - More better player's in the game, players could go out and try to play like Alex Higgins, but theyll get exposed and their deficiencies exposed as the more professional players of today's game would expose those deficiencies better. And yes it may be less exciting, yes it may only be better to watch today for those who want to get involved I the more technical aspects (not like me and you and the average fan). But it is.

Today's game isnt as exciting for me, its individual stand out players arent as exciting (Because the gap between the best and the worst isnt as great).
But unless we can develop the game where we all decide not to "Over coach" players or have game plans that let players play then advancements in coaching, game plans, structures, fitness, strength etx will keep ploughing ahead.
Individual players will always rise to the top in one way or another, but just being the best player at 16 and not buying into the other assets of the game isnt enough.

What would the Wigan team of the 90s do to the Wigan team of the 60s?
Individually the Wigan team of the late 50s/60s in Boston/ashton/sullivan/ Davies/Bolton/parr/Mctigue/Evan's/Ashurst etc had some of the best players the games produced
But the advances in all areas of the game meant that the 90s team would beat the 60s team comfortably.
Although the advancements maybe haven't come as far in the same time theyve still advanced.

In the 70s the British game carried on playing the game as it had in the 50/60s and whilst the Aussies (Jack Gibson, wheres CP Wigan these days) carried on moving forward we didn't and weve still not caught up.

The aussie game itself though suffered in some ways, the risk free structured game was labelled as boring by a lot in the early 80s (check out some of the scores in the Aussie GF's or read Monies book).
But those teams and players, even though the game may have gone risk free and structured, showed how far it had advanced when compared to best we could offer whobhadnt advanced.

I agree that the game itself may need to look at more ways of increasing excitement through changes in rules etc. And I believe a further reduction to 6 substitutions would help, keeping the game moving and less stoppages to increase fatigue factor etc would let some of the more skilful.playwrs flourish.

Anyway, just getting in Manchester Victoria and it's been a thoughtful train journey. As I say I'm not saying today's players are "Better" than their counterparts of yesteryear, just that the advances in lots of areas give them advantageous to be Better and that although the spectacle itself may not as exciting etc the full time professionalism and the advancement year on year leads to it being harder and harder to exploit deficiencies as there are less and less.

Merry Xmas everyone (it may even be new year by the time you've finished reading this).

After you name 10 from 80-90 who could play on the modern game.

Oh so now you’re once again changing the rules of the debate? Fancy that.

Of course you won’t. You tried to put words in my mouth by naming two players who I never even mentioned.
When I called you out on that you went hiding.

If you’d debate what I said rather than what you want me to say, it would be a different story.

No, im saying that most of the players you list have retired and replaced with modern day robotic halfbacks.