Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates. Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit? Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep. www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair.'" Food for thought, especially about Gelling. My worry is that in Josh Charnley we have a devastating finisher, the very best in Super League in 2012 and 2013. Poor Josh is trying his best I've no doubt, but doesn't look like breaking any records this season. If Goulding was alongside him I'd be more confident. Gelling certainly does some hard work, but his error rate is high. The stats suggest that we are lacking at prop, something we all know about. Bateman, Faz and Joel are doing the work alongside Gelling with only Tony Clubb showing up well. I was glad to see Lee Mossop back, and I thought he did a great job considering his layoff. He must have been apprehensive.

Quote ="Rogues Gallery"I'm not disagreeing with you entirely, BUT Gelling is making more metres than any other Wigan player, he's actually fourth in Superleague and that's without having the task of making easier ground as the wingers and fullbacks do. If you ship him out who is going to make that ground for the team. He actually carries the ball more than any other player in Superleague, his work ethic is excellent, maybe he needs more help from his teammates. Could Gelling play as a wide running second row if and when Sarginson and Thornley are fit? Matty Smith should be doing better. We know he's not a running half so his passing, kicking and tackling have to compensate. His decision making in the last two games has been poor. The attempted drop goal v Brisbane, the bomb on Sunday. On both occasions the ball should have been kicked low and hard to the corners to make the opposition play from deep. www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats Tackling, I don't think there are a pair of halfbacks who have to tackle as much as the Wigan pair.'" Food for thought, especially about Gelling. My worry is that in Josh Charnley we have a devastating finisher, the very best in Super League in 2012 and 2013. Poor Josh is trying his best I've no doubt, but doesn't look like breaking any records this season. If Goulding was alongside him I'd be more confident. Gelling certainly does some hard work, but his error rate is high. The stats suggest that we are lacking at prop, something we all know about. Bateman, Faz and Joel are doing the work alongside Gelling with only Tony Clubb showing up well. I was glad to see Lee Mossop back, and I thought he did a great job considering his layoff. He must have been apprehensive.

Regarding Matty, I'll always support players who have been successful with us in the past. Matty has money and credit in the bank so to speak. He's going through a rough patch at the moment, but he'll improve, I've no doubt.

As an aside to that, it's not his fault we don't have a recognised goal kicker. It might take a little pressure off him if Hampshire where to play and take over the kicking, though from what I've seen Hampshire is a bit streaky.

The Gelling debate is an interesting one.

I'm of the opinion that he's only having to do so much work because your forwards aren't.

If your forwards were, he wouldn't be a talented enough centre to make your team.

I mean really, he can't be a long term answer for Wigan in the centres can he? He often looks like he has about as much control over his limbs as my 6 month old.

He makes bad errors but then again we have seen him do some brilliant stuff with the ball that makes him look like a world beater as well. IMO he has both the talent and the work ethic, he just needs to cut down on the unforced errors and I honestly think he would be the best centre in the league. Unfortunately that's surely been the aim for a while now and he's stilll doing it. Even with the errors he's still well worth his spot

For the last three months of last year Gelling looked like a world beater. In that period (not overall) he was the best centre in superleague by a mile IMO. He's big, powerful, pacey and had both good hands and a deft kicking game as well as big solid in defence. Fast forward to this year and his errors are killing him! He's still got all the physical attributes but he's struggling with his skill. Hopefully it's the colder weather and heavy pitch or it may just be a concentration thing as his place seems pretty safe.

I think we'll always have this wild inconsistency with him though. What you've got to hope is his big games and good spells come at the right times.

Josh did do better with Goulding on his inside. Goulding has neither the pace, power or size that Gelling has so had to rely on skill, ie draw the centre and /or wing and get the pass away to Josh.

Gelling's first instinct is to go for it himself and only pass if he gets stopped, when all the momentum has gone from the move

It doesn't seem five minutes since everyone was saying the same thing about Sarge; he never passes, or only as a last resort...

The short answer to that is we don't know. I feel confident in saying that, this time last year, you'd probably have been asking the same question about Sarginson though.

The truth is that Gelling has all the attributes plus a desire to win that is second to none. His work ethic is also exemplary as can be seen in the massive metres he makes week in, week out. Let's face it; it's only a week or so ago against Brisbane that he was arguably the best player on the park, up until getting injured.

There is only one real question mark hanging over him and that is consistency but, at the moment, the same thing can be levelled at the majority of our team. Will they come good? I think past seasons suggest they will. Will Gelling come good? Again, last season suggests he will. Does that mean he's the long term answer? Well, I reckon that's a moot point anyway as I don't truly believe that SL has ANY guaranteed long term answers anymore.

Sorry but can't agree here. There is one glaring question about him other than his lack of consistency - Can he pass to the winger????

People are overlooking this rather important factor because he makes so many yards. Let him make the yards in the second row or even at prop.

I'm beginning to think that he just isn't a centre.

Quick passing movements stop dead when it gets to him. He is starving Josh to death, and since Josh is one of our most potent weapons no wonder we are struggling. (I'm not just blaming Gell by the way, because Bowen must share the blame too)

I don't think that's fair on Gelling.

Goulding played with Sam Tomkins.

Sam used to draw all of the attention on his overlap runs, leaving Goulding with an easy pass out to a free Charnley on the overlap.

We still run the same system, but Bowen provides nothing like the same threat - he often passes way before he has committed his man, which renders the move pointless. Often when Gelling gets it he HAS to run with it because both he and Charnley are man marked.

What he did last year that he's failed to do this is draw in two tacklers on those runs and offload it to Charnley - but again that's something Goulding very rarely did, so it's a bit of an unfair comparison in my opinion.

You're entitled to your opinion but to say what Goulding did was easy and laid on a plate for him is a bit rich.
Sam ain't playing for HKR yet Goulding is still laying on try's for his winger.

Classic draw and pass centre play is a pleasure to watch, but seems to be dying out in our game, sadly.

I fully agree about Bowen not providing the spark in attack that Sam T did. And yet, he used to run some great lines in tandem with JT at the Cowboys. For a man of his experience, the lack of creativity in attack is a big disappointment.

Especially as (like Sam T, if you will) he's never been the best defensive fullback in the game, and always had the odd error in him. With Sam, we could say that the tries he makes and/or scores in attack more than made up for it. With Bowen thus far, not so at all.

Nope. I'm definitely still here.



And you are still too small.

Surely Ryan Hampshire has got to be worth playing in the halves now.

Mmmm...missing after your thumping by Souths and back again now Wigan have lost. Strange that!



Just for the record, do you think Amor is too small?

Well you're entitled to your opinion, of course, but according to the stats ([urlhttp://www.superleague.co.uk/stats/player_stats[/url) he had the 7th highest try assists of any centre in superleague last year with 11, and that was in his first full season as a centre! Anecdotally I've seen him get away some miracle balls too so the raw ability certainly isn't missing.

If you check those same stats you'll also see that in only a couple of games did he fail to make over a hundred metres and was often up around 200, including a massive 269 against Leeds. He was also in double figures in scoring tries himself (Same as Joel Moon).

Given it was his first full season in the team and has spent the majority of his time here unable to get a game unless he was turning out for the 1st team, I'm not exactly sure what you expected from him. I would suggest he made a pretty good fist of it and, certainly towards the back end of the season, was arguably the form centre in SL.

I'm not arguing he's the finished article...or anything close for that matter...but to say he 'just isn't a centre' based on his one (successful) year in that position is, frankly, stretching a point! If you're referring to THIS season, then hardly any of our players would be good enough so, again, it's an unfair assessment.

I don't know, any more than you do, whether he will push on from last season. However, if he does, he'll once again be at the top end of SL centres. Is that good enough for Wigan? Well, that's an entirely different argument!

I always respect your opinion Phuzzy. You present a good case. He was very poor last night. Although as you rightly say so were most of the others. I like my centres to be like Lyon, Gidley, Gleeson and Goulding for example. I don't see Gell as being the answer for us. Though he does have his good points undoubtedly. I think he is really a forward, second row and ultimately prop.

I used to really love watching Matt Gidley play. He was a *proper* centre. A dying art, in the NRL as much as here. Jamie Lyon is one of the few nowadays

I must say i feel a bit sorry for matty as he has never been anything but a normal run of the mill scrum half i think we need to play hampshire at 6 as he has that extra pace and skill over williams

I think we need to give Williams a chance in his natural position of 7 and Hampshire at 6. They were the positions they played in together for several years and this is about the only combination that hasn't been tried so far this year, probably because of Wane's fixation about Hampshire's best position being full back as a Mk2 Sam. There may be reservations about their lack of experience, but Matty Smith's experience/ organising ability have not been evident very much this season. In mitigation, he has been playing behind a beaten pack and has not had a regular half back partner, but he has brought precious little to the table and his lack of pace when compared to both Williams and Hampshire is a crucial factor in my opinion. I would like to Smith revert to a bench 9 to spell MM - very much doubt that will happen, but that is what he used to do. Let's give it a try with 2 speedy half backs playing in tandem and let opposing teams worry about that, rather than us worrying about what defensive limitations Hampshire might have if played at 6.

I think hampshires limitions amount to not being able to catch a rugby ball

Caught plenty difficult ones v Hull KR

I think the real problem with Hampshire is Wane, who is so insistent that Ryan will play fullback that it seem to have become a standoff (no pun intended).

It is an utter disgrace that a young player who has played all his junior Rugby at standoff without being given at least a few months in his natural position when he makes the first team is being told that he either plays fullback or not at all.
It took an emergency the other week when Williams broke down in the warm up to a match for Ryan to be included at standoff and since then when Bowen has been in the squad Ryan hasn't even been in the 19.
I was even told the other week that he was informed that if standoff was the only position he wanted to play he could go to Workington on loan for the season.

What I find strange is lack of input and comments of certain posters on here when something controversial comes up.

I agree totally. Hampshire should be given a chance at 6, preferably with Williams at 7. For Wane to justify not picking Hampshire at 6 a few weeks ago because he had not impressed while playing at full back beggars belief. He may never really impress at full back because he isn't a full back!
Also, when did Williams become a 6? He played most of his junior rugby at 7 ( with Hampshire as his half back partner at 6), before becoming a bench hooker last year, again a position he had never played before until last season and which understandably took its toll on him physically. He is then given the number 6 shirt - squad numbers may not always mean everything, but they are a pretty good indicator of a coach's intentions.
This all goes back to the recruitment or lack of it these past 18 months. No real replacement/bench hooker, lack of size in the forwards, no consistent/reliable goal kicker - all of which should have been addressed.

I watched West Tigers and the Titans earlier. They may not be the best two sides in the comp, but oh for a kicker of the quality of Pat Richards or Aidan Cezer.